Jennifer: Phytoestrogens are compounds found in plants that have an estrogen-like effect. They’re more accurately estrogen modulators as they have both estrogenic and anti-estrogenic qualities.

Andrew: So, this is something, again, that’s really interesting to me. And you’ll get medicals who, forgive me, there are medicals who do not know about phytoestrogen and they say they’re estrogenic, therefore, they’re always bad. They’re not estrogens, right?

Jennifer: No. And one of the key differences between human estrogens and phytoestrogens is their ability to bind to estrogen receptors. So, human estrogens have equol affinity to estrogen receptor alpha and estrogen receptor beta. But phytoestrogens have a tenfold affinity for estrogen receptor betas.

Andrew: Okay. So, therefore, one would think that very simply, the dose determines the effect, but that’s not case.

Jennifer: Well, it’s also when we look at what the different receptors do. So, estrogen receptor alpha stimulates a lot of the reproductive system. So, breasts, ovaries, uterus, and also the hypothalamus in the brain. So, it also can have a proliferative effect on those areas. And that’s where a lot of the downside of hormone therapy comes in, where it’s your estrogen receptor betas that have an anti-proliferative effect, so, therefore, they’re safer. But also, when we’re looking at the differences in the brain, the alpha receptor betas are on the hippocampus, and this is also related to memory, learning, concentration, moods, all these wonderful things.

They both work on the bones, they both work on the heart. Estrogen receptor beta also helps with muscles, so it helps to reduce your sarcopenia or your muscle loss that can happen with the menopausal transition. Alpha is more related to liver, where beta is more related to kidneys. And also, beta is your metabolic syndrome, so helps with blood sugar management, weight management, and also mitochondrial function. So, you can see that there’s a lot of differences. And, yes, so your normal human estrogen does both, where the phytoestrogens really have, as I mentioned before, that tenfold affinity for the beta estrogen receptors, and therefore, have only the good effects without the dangerous effects.

Andrew: Yeah. I mean, you’d have to be really, really silly with intake of phytoestrogens to have an overall massively estrogenic effect, almost to the point of having a psychological issue. Correct?

Jennifer: Yeah, because phytoestrogens work depending on the estrogen that you have available in your system at the time. So, if you’ve got lots of estrogens available in your system at the time, they’re going to have an anti-estrogen-like effect. So, when we are looking at the perimenopausal experience, women can have elevated estrogen or an estrogen-dominant-type effect, and therefore, the phytoestrogens are going to have an antiestrogenic effect. Versus, the flip side, in menopause, when you’ve made it through the transition, you’re more likely to have a lower amount of circulating estrogen, and therefore, the phytoestrogens are more likely to have an estrogenic-type effect.

Andrew: Okay. So, I’m just wondering about cyclical levels of estrogens and dietary levels of phytoestrogens being, hopefully, more regularly consumed. When you’re talking about having that anti-estrogenic effect overall, because it’s basically binding to the estrogen receptors in place of endogenous estrogen, do you have to be aware of how much and which types of phytoestrogens you are consuming pertaining or relevant to which condition you are treating? And I guess where I’m thinking here is like perimenopause, what you are talking about, but you mentioned heart disease as well or heart health where, for instance, soy has been shown to be of benefit, whereas other people go off and they have, you know, soy milk, soy breakfast, soy this, soy that, and everything’s a soy, soy, and they have way too much soy. But they’re looking at it from a female hormonal perspective. Am I on the right track there? Is that a very confusing question?

Jennifer: I totally hear what you’re saying about soy, Andrew, and I am not a soy fan. And a lot of it comes down to what actually happens with the metabolism of soy. So, we consume soy, we start chewing it, we’ve got our digestive acids, our digestive enzymes, and what that produces is the isoflavones, but the isoflavones still need to be digested by your own digestive microbiome in order to get the equol, which is the end-stage metabolite, which is your active. Now, when we’re looking at different cultures, Asian cultures have generally 50% to 60% equol metabolizers, whereas a western woman, I’ve only got a 20% to 30% chance of actually making that metabolite. So, I’ve very limited chances of getting benefit from soy, where there’s also dangers of soy consumption.

Soy is one of the most genetically altered crop on the planet, therefore, it’s heavily sprayed with pesticides and herbicides, and as I’m sure we’ll get to later, these actually block receptors. So, even if you could produce it, if it’s heavily sprayed, you’re blocking it. What’s the point of taking it in the first place? But there’s other downsides of soy consumption, and we look at it with goitrogen. So, goitrogens inhibit iodine uptake into the thyroid and can produce goiters. Iodine is a nutritional co-factor that we need to facilitate binding onto a receptor. So, again, it’s that double whammy, like… Yeah. It’s also a trypsin inhibitor, which can cause a lot of digestive issues like bloating and flatulence. It contains phytates, and these are antinutrients, so they’re also gonna be absorbing your iodine, and your iron, and your calcium, and magnesia. Yeah. For me, the risk-reward ratio is not there.

Andrew: Yeah. Look…

Jennifer: But if the woman sitting in front of you is Asian eating a traditional Asian style diet and wants to have traditional fermented soy products, and that’s the key, the traditional fermented soy products, things like the Miso, and the Natto, and the Tempeh, sure, give it a go. I’ve got no problems in that scenario. But in the western scenario, what we’re buying at the supermarket, the textured vegetable proteins and the soy isolates and the soy milks, these do not have the benefits that we are looking for, and we just can’t convert them, we’re not getting equol. I sent you a study to add into the show notes, and in that particular study… It was only a small study, but they only had a 7% conversion, people that were able to convert soy into the isoflavones into equol.

Andrew: Right. So, thank you so much for clearing that up, because I must admit, I’ve wavered throughout my career, but I used to use very, very high doses of soy isoflavones, and now I restrict it only fermented only for a particular condition. But I do admit that there’s reasonable data with cardiovascular health. But I love your points about, okay, maybe so, but what are you doing along the way?

Jennifer: But there’s alternatives.

Andrew: Yeah. Well, you also answered something else for me, and that is how easy it is to fall into the trap of thinking that research on one cultural group is relevant for everybody. And that’s not necessarily the case demonstrated here. Thank you so much. That’s been a bing light bulb moment for me. So, you mentioned alternatives.

Jennifer: So, we were looking at western population. Oh, sorry.

Andrew: Yeah.

Jennifer: When we’re looking at the western population, the primary phytoestrogen that we consume are lignans. Lignan are found in flax seed. Flax seed has 800 times more lignans than any other food source. So, why are we looking to soy when we have flax seeds? So, as I mentioned, flax seeds are a phytoestrogen, they’re a lignan, and when we have a healthy digestive microbiome, they can metabolize that into your enterolignans, and it’s the enterolignans that are your active end-stage metabolite.

Andrew: That’s right. And you just mentioned the microbiome there, and we were speaking about fermented foods earlier. So, obviously, we are talking about how bacteria can work on these foods and what the end products are out of that. So, can we discuss where phytoestrogens fit into therapy? And I guess… I don’t wanna cover prioritization now because I really want to cover that later as to where they sit, but where do they fit into therapy with, say, different conditions? What do you favour phytoestrogens for, for instance?

Jennifer: I’m only really looking at research for the menopausal transition because that’s who I see. I specialize in the menopausal transition. So, women that are having symptoms, traditional menopausal symptoms, hot flushes, night sweats, mood, cognition, if they’re worried about their bone health, if they’re worried about their heart health, if they’re having issues with blood sugar regulation and weight, if they’re having issues with energy levels and fatigue, this is where phytoestrogens can, and I say can because it really depends on three other factors. And, Andrew, are you okay if I go into the three other factors why phytoestrogens may or may not work? Yep? Okay, great.

Andrew: Please do. Please do.

Jennifer: All right. So, the first one, as we sort of already hinted on, is the microbiome. And I quite often use microbiome testing in the clinic because if you don’t have the acids and enzymes, you’re not gonna be digesting anything. Your microbiome doesn’t have a chance because you haven’t digested in the first place. We then look at the microbiome. So, we’re having a look to make sure that there’s not dysbiosis, that we don’t have the wrong guys and too much of the wrong guys, or maybe not enough of the good guys, because we need the microbiome in order to produce your final-stage metabolites, which are the active constituents that do all these wonderful jobs. The second thing I look at is, say, we’ve got phytoestrogen and we’ve got the receptor, there are certain things that help with the receptor binding.

So, when we’re looking at co-factors for receptor binding, we have nutritional co-factors. We need to make sure we have enough of things like iodine, and vitamin A, and zinc, and magnesium, these beautiful nutrients. So, quite often, I’m also looking at nutritional deficiencies because we need to correct that, otherwise, the phytoestrogens don’t have a chance. And I also have a look at what things block the receptor from being able to accept your phytoestrogen or your estrogen in that regard. And these are xenoestrogens. So xenoestrogens are environmental compounds that have an estrogen-like effect in the body.

And ZEA, which is a mycotoxin from mould, is a major problem because they are so… Like, we all live… Well, we don’t all live. Here in Sydney, Australia, it’s quite a human environment, and we are prone to mould. And it could be that you have mould growing in your house that is undetected, it’s not treated, and that is blocking your receptors from being able to uptake or to accept your phytoestrogen.

Andrew: You’re talking about living in a human environment. And it’s really interesting speaking with experts like Nicole Bijlsma, Lisa McDonald, Amy Skelton, forgive me, Amy Corba. Excuse me. And the issue of water-damaged buildings. So, it’s not just related to the environment, but the actual damage that rain, you know, these weather events, do to our homes. And I thought I was resistant to this, our home, nope, not so. Found places around the home, and we went, “Oh, my goodness.” So, it’s really prevalent, far more than what I thought previously. Can I just go back, though, Jen…

Jennifer: And who would’ve thought we would’ve gone there? We’re talking about menopause and now we’re talking about mould.

Andrew: I know. Andrew’s tangential mind, but anyway, I’ll come back. I need to go back right to the start, and that was, when we were talking about definitions, we never really covered off on…I know there’s so many, but the major phytoestrogen. So you mentioned equol, but there’s also like daidzein, genistein, and then they got some of these parental isoflavones as well. Can you discuss some of these molecules?

Jennifer: The three that I look for are equol from soy, your enterolignans from your flax seed, and urolithins, which we haven’t discussed yet, from pomegranate. They’re the three that I quite often see in the research, and even when we’re looking at… So, soy, I don’t recommend. When we are looking at flax and we’re looking at pomegranate, they both have a high affinity for the estrogen receptor beta, so they do all the benefits that we discussed before, but they are also slightly different. So, flax seed also has added benefits on the digestive system where pomegranate has extra benefits for the mitochondria. So, they’re similar, but they’re also slightly different.

Andrew: Yeah. This is really interesting. When you mentioned mitochondria, tell us a little bit more about that.

Jennifer: Yeah. So pomegranate, if you can digest it and metabolize it to the end product of urolithin and, there are various kinds of urolithins, these are mitochondrial superfoods. They’re very good for autophagia. So autophagia of all your organelles, but especially for the mitochondria. So, they help to recycle old, and damaged, and worn-out mitochondrial cells so that you get new vibrant mitochondrial cells and better energy production.

Andrew: So, with autophagy, that’s a real interesting thing with regards to so many conditions, especially proliferative conditions like cancer. I guess what’s in my mind here is things like prostate cancer. Where do you use or favor the use of pomegranate phytoestrogens over others? What conditions?

Jennifer: More if the woman in front of me… I’m sorry, I know you meant to prostate cancer, I don’t see men, so I’m looking more…

Andrew: I know. Not many women have prostate. No, I get it.

Jennifer: If fatigue is the primary concern, then I would be looking more at pomegranate. But to be honest with you, Andrew, I’m more likely to use a combination of phytoestrogens because I like to think of food as medicine. So, why can’t you have different sources? Like flax seeds, the dose is two tablespoons a day. That’s easy to consume. We’ve pomegranate, we’re looking at a quarter a cup of the arrows. So, that’s something… Like, I had a smoothie before we got on the call today, and I had both of those in it and more. I had some broccoli sprouts and berries and other things. So, why limit to one?

Andrew: I’m gonna ask you about recipes there, because flax seeds are very interesting food, kinda like chia where you chew them and everything gets caught in your teeth and you get that paste in it. So, preparation and also raw material sourcing. Like, you’ve gotta be cautious about when you bite into them, if they’re bitter, is that right? They’re going rancid.

Jennifer: Yeah. See, I buy mine as whole seeds. I’ve got a special coffee grinder that I use for my seeds. I pop them in there and I grind them fresh, and then I use the ground flax seed that I’m popping in my smoothies or I’m putting them into my food. So, I wouldn’t actually know if I put it in my mouth if it was bitter because it’s already ground and they’re all mixed in. But definitely, with flax seed, you wanna grind it fresh. You want to, hopefully, consume it straight away, but if you’ve got leftovers in a dark, airtight, refrigerated and used within the next couple of days before it does go rancid. Definitely don’t go by the pre-ground stuff because who knows when it was ground, how long it is.

Andrew: Yeah. What about pomegranates though? You are talking about arils?

Jennifer: Yeah. So, you’re looking at the pomegranate, when you cut it open inside, the arils are the fruit and the seed.

Andrew: Wow. Right.

Jennifer: Yes. So, when you’re eating them, you actually want to chew the seed because, in the seed, you have omega-5. It’s actually the world’s richest source of omega-5. And omega-5 is one of the strongest regulator of insulin levels and blood sugar levels. There has been some promising research looking at it actually being equal to or possibly more effective than the current medication. So, yes, chew on your pomegranate seeds. You can actually eat the outer pomegranate shell, but it’s so bitter. I can’t do it, so I don’t. Unless you love bitter fruit, yuck.

Andrew: I mean, it’s even a knack getting out the arils. Thank you for clearing up what they are.

Jennifer: Yeah. Or you can buy them frozen.

Andrew: Oh, so can you go through this? Where do you get these from?

Jennifer: So, mine, I got from Coles. Possibly not the best place to source them from, but I can buy them frozen like I would buy my frozen blueberries, buy my frozen pomegranate, and I just take a scoop, chuck it in my smoothie with everything else.

Andrew: Big lesson for me today about these seeds because I remember we used to have a pomegranate tree, and I’d break and open up and tease apart the flesh, how they’re caught up in these, it’s almost like a walnut. And I’d just chew the fruit and spit out the seeds.

Jennifer: Oh, no. Don’t spit out the seed.

Andrew: Well, yeah, but I should have been chewing the seeds, I know.

Jennifer: Yes. Oh, you know now.

Andrew: Yeah, it’s preparation of other things as well. Let’s go through some. What else did you have in this smoothie?

Jennifer: Okay. So, my smoothie this morning, I sometimes put coconut milk, but I was out, so it was just water today. I have collagen, I have fibre, and then I put in my frozen. So, I do sometimes put a couple of slices of frozen banana just because it absorbs some of the grittiness. When you are blending things like pomegranate, you can be a bit gritty, so the banana helps with that. I then put in some mixed berries and some pomegranate. And I’m pretty sure that’s it this morning. So, yeah, I had my collagen, my fibre, my phytonutrients, blend it, drink it, that’s my morning smoothie. Darn it. Ah, I also had MCT oil in it. I have a C8 caprylic acid, so chucks of MCTs in there, get my brain working for the day. And it tastes delicious. Food is medicine.

Andrew: Can I also ask about helping women throughout the perimenopausal period. It’s been shown that many women in this age bracket are suffering from a relative protein deficiency, if you like. Do you add protein into your smoothies? Yeah?

Jennifer: So, in my particular case, I’m a big meat eater, Andrew. I have no problems with having steak, or chicken, or fish. I just put collagen in mine. But if I’ve got a woman who is maybe more on the vegetarian or the vegan side, I definitely, protein is so important, especially for reducing sarcopenia, the muscle-related wasting with age. So, we need our muscles, otherwise, we’re at risk of falling over, breaking a hip and it being beginning of the end.

Andrew: Not good. So, proteins, what sort of proteins, particularly for vegetarians?

Jennifer: For vegetarians.

Andrew: Uh-oh.

Jennifer: Yeah. It really depends on the individual woman sitting in front of me, depending on what she can tolerate. I may be looking at maybe even some whey-based, but she may or may not be able to tolerate whey, so we might not go there. And if she’s vegan, she won’t have it, but if she’s vegetarian, she may. You just gotta use what you can, Andrew. I don’t have any particular favourites, especially when it comes to vegetarian proteins. I’m not a…

Andrew: No, that’s fine.

Jennifer: … big fan, but…

Andrew: Getting off onto a little bit on the supplement arena, and that is you are now seeing phytoestrogens from hops, from, is it Russian asparagus, and other sources, not just the lignans and things like that. Do you ever use these in your management of perimenopause or do you tend to favour foods as the major source?

Jennifer: See, I really see my role is setting a woman up for success. And, for me, the ultimate success is for her to be able to use food as medicine moving forward in the long run. Because also, when we’re thinking about age, retirement might come, income’s gonna reduce. If she can use food as medicine, then that’s, for me, the ultimate success. So, I wanna look at what do I need to do now in order for her to be able to metabolize and utilize the phytoestrogens moving forward in the future. And I tend to stick to the ones that I’ve seen in the research, and there is an abundance of research on flax seeds and pomegranates. So, what we haven’t discussed is broccoli, but I don’t wanna go down the broccoli path because broccoli does so much, we’ll be here for the rest of the day.

Andrew: Another podcast.

Jennifer: Possibly.

Andrew: Look, there’s so much. But on that note, do you tend to favour a concentrated extract like a supplement of broccoli, broccoli sprout extract, or do you use broccoli sprouts?

Jennifer: I would supplement in that particular case, in that…

Andrew: Gotcha.

Jennifer: Just that when we’re looking at the therapeutic dose of broccoli, it’s 500 grams, which is two heads of broccoli. I love broccoli. It’s my favourite vegetable in the world. I’m not eating two heads of broccoli every day.

Andrew: No. Having said that, with regards to the supplement, some people are very concerned about it being a goitrogen, how real is this in the doses that we are using though?

Jennifer: Also, there’s things you can do to reduce its goitrogenic activity. So, if you’re looking at the food, you can ferment it, you can sprout it. So, I use sprouted. If I do use supplements, it’s a spouted broccoli, that way it doesn’t have its goitrogenic effect. And if you are using it food, you can also slightly steam it. That also helps to reduce the goitrogens.

Andrew: Right, okay. Not being a fan of raw broccoli, although I have done it. Steamed is the way to go.

Jennifer: You just need to watch how long you steam it for, because when you steam it for more than 10 minutes, you’ve deactivated the… Yeah.

Andrew: Yeah, the myro. So myrosinase, and that releases glucoraphanin. And then, of course, you have to go into the raw material and how much raw myrosinase and glucoraphanin is in there. But anyway, separate podcast. So, thinking about a therapy, thinking about diets of perimenopausal women, how do you find… Are these women used to or open to these changes in dietary management, if you like, or are they already basically the healthy woman?

Jennifer: Mixed bag, Andrew. Perimenopausal women are all shapes and sizes. Some of them are highly, highly motivated, very healthy women. Some of them are not. But what I would say across the board is they’re a highly motivated bunch, that whatever they’re experiencing, they don’t choose to experience, they want a different outcome. And I’ve found, in my experience, that they are wonderful women to work with because they do what you ask them to do because they want a healthier, happier life.

Andrew: Well, absolutely happy. I would imagine their partners would as well. But, anyway. So, with regards to holistic management, how readily do you use phytoestrogens with medications, and how do you find their effect? Do you find any issues with instituting reasonable dose of phytoestrogens with a person who might be on HRT?

Jennifer: Yeah, if you are using food-based medicine, I have no problems with combining it with HRT. And if anything, some of the phytoestrogens are going to help reduce the hyperprolific effect of your hormone replacement therapy.

Andrew: And you’ve also discussed gut health. So, then we’ve gotta discuss enterohepatic recirculation of estrogens. I dunno about phytoestrogens, but anyway. Do you ever do any assessments of, certainly, let’s say the hydroxy estrogens? Do you even test any levels of phytoestrogens in the blood, or do you just rely on the evidence and their benefits?

Jennifer: I’m not aware of any tests to check for phytoestrogens in the blood. In the research, they’re having a look, but what they’re looking at is fecal samples. So, certainly not something that I have access to, although I do do microbiome testing, but that doesn’t tell me whether they’ve got phytoestrogens in the blood or not. But it does tell me about the beta-glucuronidase, which you were talking about with the recirculation of the estrogens. So, I do have an idea of how high or how low that is, and the higher that is in a woman, the more likely they’re going to be experiencing issues with estrogen dominance. So, that’s when I’m looking at tests, because you did ask about testing. So, testing, I generally start with a geo map or some sort of microbiome testing. From that, I will then look for key nutritional deficiencies because I want to make sure that the receptor has its cofactors so that we can utilize these phytoestrogens.

I then look at toxicity testing. So, I might do a myco panel if I’m suspecting water damage or mould. I might do a GPO tox if I’m worried about chemical exposure. I might do a HTMA if I’m worried about heavy metal exposure. That tends to be like my starting point because phytoestrogen therapy’s not gonna work if you’ve got issues with any of these three spaces. So, correct that first and then we can add in the phytoestrogens, which will be the long-term, hopefully, long-term maintenance for that particular woman. But it’s making sure she can actually utilize the phytoestrogens in the first place.

Andrew: And obviously when we are talking about maximizing the availability of the nutrients, you’ve gotta go right back to how people chew in a relaxed state. Do you ever favour the use of digestive enzymes to help things along in the initial stages at least?

Jennifer: Definitely. And we know that during that perimenopause, menopause transition, that your digestive acids and enzymes do reduce. So, when I get my microbiome test, it also tells me about a woman’s digestive capabilities. So then I can see, do I need to utilize any of these other strategies like adding in digestive enzymes or digestive acids.

Andrew: And what about things like NAC or other things to help hepatic detoxification or liver function? What about herbs, for instance?

Jennifer: Yeah. I don’t tend to use NAC because I quite like using broccoli, and NAC actually plays around or limits or blocks your ability to use your sulforaphane. So, I would prefer to use sulforaphane and to get an active benefit from that. So, I don’t tend to use too much NAC. If I do have issues with really high beta-glucuronidase, I tend to go more towards your dim. I’m not a fan of IC3 or your indole-3-carbinol just because it’s so, ah, what’s the word, Andrew, I’m looking for?

Andrew: Unstable to start. Well, it’s unstable to start. It’s one of the very few supplements I’m very cautious of. Probably the I3C is that you can’t control what it’s gonna condense to because the stable condensation product that doesn’t cause proliferative outcomes is 33DIM or 3-3-Diindolylmethane. I am a fan of that supplement, but I get hesitancy in some people, and certainly, it only does one, whereas broccoli does so many things.

Jennifer: Yes. I’ve heard Dr. Christine Horton talk about, it’s like the Christmas tree light.

Andrew: Christine Horton.

Jennifer: So you flick on one light switch and all the lights on the Christmas tree go on. I like that idea that you’re giving one thing that does so many things within the body. That’s important because we can’t be taking 100 supplements.

Andrew: No, that’s right. But on that line, what about simple supplements like zinc B6 and magnesium to help with estrogen metabolism? I’m just thinking about the biochemical conversion of pregnenolone, progesterone, and then into your estrogens down track. Even simple things like zinc B6, magnesium can help, but how much do you use those, or do you tend to favour food?

Jennifer: So, I test. I test.

Andrew: Okay.

Jennifer: Especially looking at zinc and copper, because as we go through the menopausal transition, we may be accumulating more copper, so we might need a lot of zinc in order to counteract that, so I will do a higher dose. Yeah, testing is the answer. Andrew, if you test, then you know, you don’t have to guess. And you can also retest later.

Andrew: There’s so much more to go into here because I’ve got 20 questions, and we haven’t got time. Jen, where can people find out more? Where can pracs find out more so that they can have a more effective use of phytoestrogens, and overall, a more effective treatment regimen, if you like, for women going through their perimenopausal era?

Jennifer: So, I would start with my website, which is menopausenaturalsolutions.com. My podcast is actually the same name, so “Menopause Natural Solutions.” And I also have a book “From Invisible To Invincible: The Natural Menopause Revolution”, if you prefer reading.

Andrew: If you prefer. And obviously, that will be fully referenced.

Jennifer: It is.

Andrew: Wonderful. Can’t wait to see that. Jen, thank you so much for taking us through, again, just a little tip of the use of phytoestrogen and what we’ve gotta be aware of, our guts, but also how you address that in women. I love the way that you favour foods because of reasonable things that are gonna happen in couples’, people’s, and certainly women’s lives as they enter retirement, as you say, and things like that. So, you are looking outside of just, here they are now, let’s look down the track. I love the way that you’re thinking about their finances and how it can be maintained throughout their lifetime. Thank you so much for joining us today on “Wellness by Designs.”

Jennifer: Well, thank you for having me, Andrew. It’s been a pleasure.

Andrew: And remember that you can find all of the show notes and other resources on the designsforhealth.com.au website and also catch up on the other episodes of “Wellness by Designs” on your favourite podcast app. Thanks so much for joining us today. I’m Andrew Whitfield-Cook, and this is “Wellness by Designs.”