Jesse: Yeah. So, you’re absolutely right. Most people do come and see me in the practice here because they are in pain, and yeah, pain is, it’s such a big, broad, and complex phenomenon in the body. So, the first thing that I do is really try and figure out where it’s coming from, what structure, what tissue is involved. And I usually try and sort of map out the root causes, through just a really good questionnaire, subjective interview, and try and just find where exactly is this source of this pain coming from, you know? Is it from a somatic structure? So, muscle, periosteum, ligament, tendon, skin. Or is it something deeper? Is it visceral? Or are we looking at something that’s more sensitization, central nervous system-related overload? Sort of a chronic pain syndrome, those kind of things.

So, looking at all of those, I guess, for common reflex arcs in the nervous system. So, we know that there is the ability for somatic structures to refer to other somatic structures, through a reflex arc. So, for example, you might have, you know, the patella tendon reflex. You tap the patella tendon, and that causes the That’s a reflex in the body. And pain is very much like that. So, our experience of pain is essentially nociception sensation, coming from structures going through, up into the spinal cord, where it’s then either going up towards the nervous system, or getting overloaded at that spinal segment, referred somewhere else. So, it’s, for me, it’s just trying to figure out, okay, is this from an external somatic structure, or is it more of a visceral structure, or is this something that is related to a person’s, I guess, overall nervous system state? And that’s kind of where I start, but I really like using, I guess, this whole idea of finding the cause of the pain from when it first started.

So, often looking at the symptom recognition, and trying out things with manual therapy, starting off there, I find that a lot of people’s issues can just get rectified with some really good soft tissue therapy or manual therapy. And that can] yes or no, it’s coming from a muscle or a tendon, you know, or a joint, etc., that’s causing most of the discomfort. And then, obviously, exercises as well, like stretches and strengthening exercises. Yeah, breathing exercises and things like that. And then, as an adjunct to that, and I guess this is where I find that sort of whole complementary, more integrative approach, I look at their lifestyle. So, what are they doing in terms of their exercise habits, their sleep? Even just basic eating habits, you know, things like that as well, can have an impact, and cause pain in the body. And even something simple is overall stress levels. What is their, I guess, balance of their energy? Energy out versus energy in. Are they sort of disrespecting that equilibrium? Are they in homeostasis? And then, yeah, looking at ways to support them, and definitely nutraceuticals, vitamins, is a big, big part of helping to bring someone back into that balance, or just to give them that support, that nutritional support, to get them through what they’re going through. So, yeah. I really, really like using things like ashwagandha, curcumin, magnesium, collagen. Those are sort of the main ones that I typically recommend and suggest people use. Yeah.

Andrew: Yeah. Jesse, I’ve gotta take my hat off to you. I love the way that you said that. It’s to support them while they’re going through this. It’s not this, “I put them on magnesium, and they’re on it for the rest of their life.” So, it’s this real responsible use of supplements to help people through a difficult period in their lives, while correcting an imbalance, with the hope that they won’t need those supplements in the future. So, I, let me take my hat off to you, mate.

Jesse: Absolutely. Yeah. Thanks for that. Yeah. Look, and it’s definitely something that I’ve become more attuned to, even myself included over the years. You know, these supplements are there to supplement a well-balanced lifestyle, diet, and the body responds well to these things, but ultimately, you should be getting these from your, you know, your day-to-day life. Your body should be accessing that through basic nutrition. And so, oftentimes, I really encourage people, depending on their presentation, what they’re at, is to get some nutritional support, whether that be through a clinical nutritionist or a naturopath, or going to see their GP or someone who they can get some really, really good education from on how to basically get the nutrients and the vitamins they need to support their body to heal. So, that’s definitely something where, especially people who have very, very low health literacy, I’ll pretty much always them to someone who can help them in that regard. So, yeah.

Andrew: Yeah. Can I just ask, though, when we’re talking about the difference between visceral and musculoskeletal pain, it might seem obvious because they’re different tissues, but do you find that you have to rely on certain hints that the patient might give you, the symptomatology? Where the pain is? How it’s presenting? Is there any hints that you can give us that might help to differentiate those two types of pain?

Jesse: Definitely. Yeah. So, in my experience, it’s really important to understand the aggravating factors. And if it’s a mechanical movement that’s causing that irritation, then you can be pretty certain that it’s probably coming from some structures relating to that movement of that joint. If it’s something that’s related to something that’s non-mechanical, let’s say their pain, a lady presents with lower back pain, and she’s premenstrual, and that’s a recurring pattern, and you pick that up in your questioning, and that’s something that you can go, “Right. Perhaps this is actually referring pain into the lower back, where the organ itself is referring nociception into the spinal cord segment that’s also innervating the lower back muscles. So, the pain might be in the lower back, but it’s actually emanating from internal organs. And that’s a pain that’s often described as being deeper, and a lot more throbbing, and I often hear complaints that it feels very, very strong, and it’s almost quite hard to palpate, in that sense. Whereas they can’t quite find the spot. Yeah.

And look, there’s also pain that comes from the nervous system itself. So, we know that when you’re looking at someone, especially when the symptoms have been quite chronic, that pain is an impulse from the brain, to alert you of danger, and perceive threat. And the more that that impulse gets sent from the body, whether that be the viscera or the muscle or the somatic structures, that pathway, that impulse pathway, that neural pathway, it becomes facilitated, and that facilitation means it’s easier to trigger it. So therefore, people with long-standing symptoms, who don’t have a good understanding of what’s going on, they can get that experience of pain much easier. And that can be quite problematic.

Andrew: So, pain begets pain.

Jesse: Correct. Yes.

Andrew: Right. So, this is…is that along the lines of complex regional pain syndrome, that sort of thing, or are we talking about something different?

Jesse: Yeah, exactly. It honestly depends on where you live and what healthcare professional you see, but all of those sort of symptoms, complex regional pain syndrome, fibromyalgia, those sorts of things…

Andrew: Right.

Jesse: …they all sort of fall into that same bracket. So, I guess what I’m looking at with those diagnoses, and trying to really find what’s going on with someone, you’re looking at things like that the pain is exceeding the normal time for tissue healing. So, for example, we know that ligamentous structures roughly take about 90 days to heal, in a normal, healthy person. And so if this prolonged pain that’s going beyond the normal time for a muscle or a bone to heal, a fracture to heal, you know that there’s an element of sensitization in their nervous system, and that’s something that’s really commonly overlooked by the person themselves, but also other healthcare professionals, and they, you know, super confused about what the hell’s going on. But I’ve even seen it where the pain can spread to the opposite side. So, bursitis on a shoulder goes on and on and on, and then that can actually overload their C5 nerve root, the dorsal horn of the spinal cord. And then that transfers to the other side, because it’s a protective mechanism in the nervous system, when the body is actually trying to alert you of, and it’s got nowhere else to go, those impulses, so… And then that’s when that spreading of pain, in a sort of, I guess unexplained way, can lead to that whole complexity, and the regional nature of, overall, everything hurts.

Andrew: It’s almost like the body’s trying to tell you to stop. Seek help. You know?

Jesse: That’s right. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And that’s exactly what pain is.

Andrew: Okay. Yeah. Well, yeah. Isn’t it interesting that we think of just pain, very often, as this bad thing. We’d like it to go away. “Can you get rid of it for me, please?” Rather than, “This pain is telling you something. It’s a message. It’s like we need to address the message.” Interesting.

Jesse: Yeah, yeah. Exactly.

Andrew: So, look…

Jesse: It’s a survival instinct, survival mechanism inbuilt into us.

Andrew: Yeah. Yeah. I could talk to you all day, Jesse, seriously. But we’ve gotta move on to conditions, because that’s what we promised our audience.

Jesse: Yes. Yeah.

Andrew: So, let’s move on to conditions. What, like, presentation, how you might treat them, if you’d use any supplements that you might find of merit, and how, you know, long-term effects, how you get people off supplements, what their prognosis is? So, you know, let’s talk about something common. Lower back pain, right? Very common.

Jesse: Yeah, sure.

Andrew: Presentation first? Yeah.

Jesse: Yeah. So, I think, with lower back pain, again, looking at the causes, but let’s, I find, quite frequently, there is always an element of tightness in the back, in the surrounding tissues and structures, and a lot of that tightness obviously is coming from the myofascial system. So, the fascia, being that real elastic, sinewy substance that covers all of our organs, muscles, tissues. And one thing we do know is that elasticity in fascia is really important, and muscles. And that ability to have a relaxed musculoskeletal system largely comes from magnesium. So, often, especially with someone whose symptoms match up with a lifestyle that’s contributing to tightness, through sedentary behaviors or certain overuse example, throwing in some magnesium into their treatment protocol, I find, is really, really helpful, and it just gives them that sort of ability to relax, sleep better. People often report feeling much less tense overall, because, as you said before, pain begets pain, and tightness in the back, whether that be in the muscles or a stiff joint, that can ultimately lead to a state where there’s trigger points in those muscles, and those trigger points can cause lack of blood flow, which is ischemia. And then that can also lead to anoxia, which is low oxygen level. So, when you’re looking at it, yes, massaging is very, very good, and stretching is very good. But ultimately, we wanna help support people even more, when they’re not in the treatment room those other 23 hours of the day. And so, I really love using magnesium for those sorts of things.

Andrew: Yeah. It’s really interesting speaking with David Cowhig about, who’s an integrative dentist, about his use of magnesium with even temporomandibular joint pain, and also those patients that might, you know, they’re very tense. They tend to be the more tense people, and they don’t relax their jaw, and they end up with jaw pain after a procedure, so he gets them onto magnesium, and he finds that over a month or so, or two, that their jaw relaxes, from, that’ll be more than one month, but from one treatment thing to the next six months-odd. Yeah, their jaw relax, and they’re much more amenable to that sort of wide jaw, procedural sort of exploration sort of stuff.

Jesse: Yeah. It’s a very calming mineral.

Andrew: Can I just ask…? Yeah. Can I just ask? So, when we’re talking about joints, lower back pain, yeah, let’s say there’s some deterioration of the cartilage on the facets in the lumbar joints, lumbar vertebrae. So, try to differentiate between nerve pain, and then also, because you get a pain, you want to isolate that, you want to stop it from moving, from giving you pain, so you tend to put the muscles into spasm to support it. You know, it’s not core stuff, but it’s trying to, like…

Jesse: Protective… Protective.

Andrew: A protective spasm, yeah.

Jesse: Yeah, a protective muscle spasm. Yeah.

Andrew: Yeah. So, do you find that you have to sort of work back like an onion? To say, okay, let’s work on the muscles, but we still have to, sometime, address that, you know, facet joint issue. Or, how do you work…

Jesse: Correct. Correct. Yep. Absolutely. Yeah, that’s, yeah. Well, obviously, the facets are quite internal, and the nerves are even more inside the vertebra, so it’s deeper. But you definitely work outside in. And the brain will prioritize, the nervous system will prioritize the impulse that’s the strongest as well. So, the person might be experiencing nerve pain, for example. That’s the strongest impulse, because the nerve’s getting compressed from a disc bulge, or degeneration, and other things that can be causing it, but you can also put that person in a comfortable position, release them, relax their muscles, and then they find that their actual overall sensitivity, and the impulses that are going up to the spinal cord, are reduced. So, therefore that actually calms them down, which then helps calm their pain down a little bit, so then you can actually get a better idea of, okay, what is the predominant thing happening here? Is it, you know, just your arthritis? Is it just tightness in the back, or is it actually you’ve got some nerve pain? So, whatever symptoms are sort of persistent through the treatment helps in the differential diagnosis.

Andrew: You know what? Yeah, you know what’s pinging in my mind here is how many patients I see on very high-dose, you know, gabapentin or something like that. And, how do I phrase this? Even on higher doses, their pain is not well-managed, and so they’re looking for other issues. Often they’re a pill, or, you know, sometimes medicinal cannabis or something like that. Their pain is not imagined. Their pain is not trivial. But they find it really hard to get somebody to believe them, in the orthodox arena, about the severity of their pain. And it would be so interesting for them to, rather than going down the tablet intervention, or pharmaceutical intervention, to get a physical therapy intervention, to relax the spasm, so they’re not having to rely on these medicines so much.

Jesse: Absolutely, yeah. I’ve actually had a few patients myself that have come on very high medications such as gabapentin, and have been able to quite successfully wean off them, with therapy. Relaxation therapies, predominantly, I find work really well with those kind of more chronic, high levels of pain presentations. Yeah.

Andrew: Okay. So, with that muscle spasm, do you tend to just say, you know, use a little bit of magnesium and some manual therapies and stretching, or do you tend to sort of go in with anti-inflammatory-type nutrition?

Jesse: So, yeah. So, anti-inflammatories, I guess, don’t come into the picture unless the pain pattern is inflammatory. So, they present with, typical, when I wake up in the morning, it’s feeling a lot more sore, or after inactivity, it’s a lot more sore, when the inflammation accumulates. Or at an early-stage acute ankle sprain, or even just an acute injury in general, and you, sort of, muscles tears or disc bulges, it’s really good to start to bring in those anti-inflammatory nutrients. So, one of the most powerful things that I use for anti-inflammatory-related pain is curcumin. So, the extract, anti-inflammatory extract of turmeric. Yeah, I find that to be really, really beneficial in alleviating inflammatory-related pain, and those sort of early-stage musculoskeletal strains and the sprains, as well as those more arthritic complaints as well, I find that to… And there’s really, really good evidence now that curcumin does help with inflammation, suppressing it, and yeah. Yeah.

Andrew: Absolutely. You know, what I love about curcumin is that we’re not just talking about, like, an NSAID, that does one thing really well and really strongly. Instead, there’s a beautiful diagram, and I think it’s from Boston Uni, and it shows the different aspects of inflammation that curcumin works on.

Jesse: Yeah, I think I’ve seen it. Yeah. It’s incredible. Yeah. It’s such a miraculous…

Andrew: Yeah. Yeah. And I think that’s one of these paradigm things that we need to… Anybody who’s looking integrative medicine has got to appreciate that we’re not talking about drugs. We’re talking about things that, it might seem wishy-washy to somebody who’s used to a very regimented dialogue, you know, things that turn on and off, and inhibit, and block, and things, rather than, instead of the naturomedicine vernacular, of supporting, nourishing, you know, that sort of, it might seem ambiguous, but indeed, that’s what nature does.

Jesse: Absolutely. Absolutely. And that’s the beauty of using these, I guess, natural ingredients is they’re natural, and they’re so powerful, and especially when they’re extracted, and well-made and well-formulated, you can use them with really, really good effect. And yeah, I find that curcumin is just such an amazing ingredient, that just helps relax not only that inflammation, but it’s also an antioxidant, you know, and there’s so much new research out there now showing that, you know, irritable bowel syndrome, and it helps with the gut as well. So, I think looking at those sorts of ingredients as a first-line approach, when it comes to helping and supporting people through health challenges, is really a no-brainer, in my opinion. Why wouldn’t you opt for those natural ingredients first?

Andrew: Yeah. Okay. So, lower back pain. Maybe we can finish off just there. So, do you tend to then move on, move through, on to supporting, you know, cartilage degeneration, with things like collagen, or do you tend to use them all at once, or, like, how do you stratify the use of them?

Jesse: Yeah, I definitely try and start off with one thing at a time, especially when someone’s new to the idea of using vitamins and supplements. And I don’t tend to recommend a lot of vitamins or herbs. I’m really quite simple, that if it does get sort of beyond the scope of what I know, I’ll happily refer them just to someone who needs, who can help them in a lot more thorough way. And so, yeah, I generally start with one thing at a time. “Take this. See how you go. Let’s support you with that,” and getting their feedback as well really, really helps. I think that’s such a good scientific method, is where you just test it out, feel it, see how they experience it, and then they come back and report. But yeah, collagen is, I think, for me, it’s more of a food, almost, rather than a supplement. I think it’s such a powerful food source for people in general, just as a protein source, and a good amino acid sauce, but it definitely helps with arthritis. I’ve witnessed that in my practice, and joint pain, and we know that it stimulates those chondrocyte productions. And yeah, that’s what we’re really after, and even in the conditions like osteoporosis, I’ll recommend it for people who aren’t already taking it, because of the ability to stimulate osteoblasts.

Andrew: Yeah. I take your point about food and things like that. Isn’t it such a pity that we don’t eat like… Now, what’s her name? Nigella? The cook?

Jesse: Nigella Bites. Yeah.

Andrew: What’s her name?

Jesse: Nigella Bites. Nigella Bites, I think.

Andrew: No, somebody else. She’s British cook, and she’s voluptuous and very sensuous, and she’s very cheeky in the way that she talks to the camera, and stuff like that. And she always says that when she goes to a dinner party at friends’ place, she’ll pinch, like, the chicken carcass. Will say, “You done with that? Because I’m taking it home.” And isn’t it a pity that we’ve lost this way of cooking? You know, in the old days, grandma would always chuck in the chicken carcass, and we’d be having the marrow and the collagens from those meats and bones and things. We’d reuse them. Nowadays, it’s all fast and clean, and “Ohh,” you know? It’s such a shame.

Jesse: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I think you said it. It’s that lack of time. I think everyone’s really just gotten a lot more time-poor. And yeah, I think, if you did have more time, people probably would realize, hey, this is actually really tasty and really nourishing, and full of good stuff, so… Yeah. I love it. I think it’s one of the top, top ingredients that I recommend for people. Tendinopathies, I find it works really well, as an adjunct to treatment. Any kind of connective tissue disorder, it’s such a powerful thing to be taking regular, yeah.

Andrew: Okay. So, we’ve said lower back pain. If you’re talking about connective tissue, let’s talk about ITB or TFLs. So, tensor fasciae latae.

Jesse: Yes, yeah. Yeah, so…

Andrew: Take us through this, because this hurts to treat it. Like…

Jesse: Yeah. Yep. So…

Andrew: … on the roller.

Jesse: Yeah, definitely. Well, look, it’s, the ITB itself is fascia. So, it starts from the TFL, the tensor fasciae latae, at the front of your hip bone. So, if you sort of place your thumbs on the outer front area of your pelvis, you’ll feel a very, very small, sort of, meaty region. That’s your TFL, and that is kind of the anchor, the starting point of where that ITB wraps around the outside of the lateral thigh, down to the outside of the knee. And it’s very, very dense and strong fascia. And we know that a lot of it has to do with that sort of three-dimensional matrix, and it’s important, we spoke about last time, hydration, making sure that we’re getting enough liquid in our body to be able to hydrate, so that you have that elasticity. And in terms of treatment, it’s really looking at their biomechanics, or looking at their gait, their walking, how their body is functioning, and why is it that that structure’s getting overloaded? And often I’ll see weaknesses all throughout that kinetic chain, lower limb, right from the foot up to the rib cage. And yeah, in my neuromuscular training, I’ve been taught how to examine the person, sort of, the foot up, and look at the relationship of the segments to each other, not just the segment in isolation. So, being able to look at things almost from an engineering perspective, of why is that lateral area getting so much torque? And how come it’s having to become so tense? What’s not supporting it above and below? So, that’s what I look at first, is really, like, their ankle mobility, hip mobility, their stability, neuromuscular stability in their foot, and the ability to stabilize through the pelvis. Often I find it’s the opposing side that’s the problem. So, they might have ITB syndrome on the left side, but that’s because that left side’s overworking, due to a weak right side.

Andrew: Ah. Okay.

Jesse: Yeah. So, it’s

Andrew: That’s very interesting.

Jesse: Yeah. So, often, just by correcting the dysfunctions on the opposite side, you can actually take some of that imbalance away, and quite quickly make a meaningful change. Yep.

Andrew: Okay. And so, treatment-wise, is it mainly, you know, manual therapies, and training people to look at the other side, and support, and look at what’s happening with the feet, possibly the knees? Is that really the mainstay of therapy? Do you use any nutraceuticals there, or is it just like, “This stuff hurts. Get ready for it?”

Jesse: Yeah. Not as the first-line intervention. I find with those sort of more fascial issues, it’s largely due to the imbalances in their body, their movement system, the mechanical system. Yeah. So, if it’s not responding to treatment, then I might look at introducing some magnesium, or some collagen to support, and looking at other things that might potentially be causing it. But if it was just in isolation, it’s pretty straightforward, and you can, 9 times out of 10, you can knock it out with just the manual therapy and the exercise, and the modifications to their training. Yeah, it’s definitely an area that’s, it hurts because it’s so tight. That hypertonicity just goes on and on and on, not addressed, and that just compounds, and what leads to the amount of sensitivity in there.

Andrew: But it’s really interesting that, you know, the mainstay of therapy is to make it hurt more. It’s like, you know

Jesse: Yeah.

Andrew: Counterintuitive, I tell you. I just… Oh, man. Jesse, can… Sorry, you go. You go.

Jesse: Yeah, I was just gonna say that it depends on the person. Some people have a very good tolerance for manual therapy, and they actually find that they can differentiate between a positive sort of sensation that’s doing them good versus a negative one. And I find that people who are able to tolerate some deep tissue, soft tissue, manual therapy get better quicker, because there’s less reaction, and there’s less, I guess, withdrawal from the treatment itself. Even though they might know, or think it might be good for them. So, everyone’s, I guess, sensory system is very different, and that’s where I think it’s very important to find someone who’s quite skilled in their craft, and experienced in manual therapy, so that they can apply the right amount of pressure, and, you know, because you don’t want a too strong a stimulus, and you don’t want too weak a stimulus, when it comes to applying pressure in therapy. You want to be right in that sweet spot. And that, most people are pretty good, but you do find the occasional person who is very, very sensitive, and that’s tricky to work around. Yeah.

Andrew: Right. Okay. So, let’s move to the far end of the body. Sore necks, huge. And even migraines as well. Can we talk about those? Migraines is something that interests me greatly. You know, I’ve seen the sort of theory of migraines evolve over a period of time. Where are we at to now Where are we at?

Jesse: My experience with migraines is they vary greatly. The research is pretty clear, and I’d say pretty substantially consistent in terms of categorizing them into the different types of migraines. But often, when people come in saying, “I’ve got a migraine,” I find that it’s not a migraine that they’ve got. It’s actually more of a tension-type headache, or a cervicogenic-type headache, that’s referring. Yeah. So, I don’t see a lot of migraines in my practice. I think migraines are very debilitating. When someone’s got a migraine, they usually just don’t do anything. Yeah. So, I think the few migraines that I have seen, presentations that I have seen, it’s more of something that’s been building and brewing for a long time, or it might be hormonal, or it could be related to stress, or, you know, nutritional/chemical imbalance or something like that, or a food intolerance, or, you know. They’ve just had it for so long. It’s not something that necessarily is gonna get better in just physiotherapy alone. So that’s where referrals are really important.

But I think, looking at someone’s neck pain, headaches, migraine, that sort of region in general, the biggest thing is just to firstly calm the person down, to bring them into that parasympathetic state. And that is my go-to, in terms of just using, you know, relaxation therapies, and, yeah, calming herbs, like ashwagandha, to get them into a state of more homeostatic equilibrium. And I find that that works really well. Because obviously, the neck is such, as you said before, it’s such a emotionally-connected area to our limbic system. So, when we feel stressed, we tighten, through those deep stabilizing muscles that we’re not even aware of, because they’re so, I guess, deep, and they’re not very big, and then they get so tight, and then they become very, very problematic, and then that pain refers into areas. Yeah.

So, I look quite closely at the person, I guess, overall presentation. Most of the time, I find that it is postural, or structural, in sense. And yeah, I really, really like the whole sort of idea of bringing a person into that relaxed state when they come in for a session, what they’re suffering from, a migraine headache, or neck pain, because it’s such a threat when you have someone who’s got pain in that region, because it’s so debilitating, and they’re so aware of it, because it’s so close to their center of consciousness. I think that’s something that I find is just priority number one, someone walks in the door, it’s just, get them let’s get them relaxed, and go from there.

Andrew: And are we still at the stage where, you know, migraine was considered to be a biphasic sort of condition? I thought… Forgive me if this is incorrect. Am I correct in saying that migraine is now being considered almost like an autoimmune condition? Is that right?

Jesse: Yeah, you can say that. Yeah, definitely.

Andrew: So, what’s happening there?

Jesse: Well, it depends on the person, but when we look at the causes of the migraines, as I said before, the autonomic nervous system, the glands, the functioning of all of our sort of endocrine system, circulatory system, the stomach, the intestines, they can all be causes of migraines. And hormonal system as well. So, that’s why I think people are now looking at it from more of that sort of autonomic malfunctioning, having to realize, okay, it’s really tied into that system, and so we have to treat it as, from that perspective, rather than just looking at it more superficially.

Andrew: You know what? You just made me realize something. For years, decades, we’ve been thinking, we’ve been talking about biologically active amines. You know, the tyramines and histamines and things like that. And yet, we eat those. They’re not just in the brain. We eat them. And we talk about avoiding these foods, because they’re biologically active, but we never think about that that food has to communicate with the brain. I’ve only just realized it. How stupid of me. Like, seriously. I just, sometimes I whack myself over my head with a piece of four-by-two, because I’m just like, I’m stunned by how ignorant I’ve been. Hmm. Okay.

Jesse: It’s so simple, though.

Andrew: Okay. I’m gonna explore that. Yeah. Thank you. Okay. So, what about things like other therapies? We’ve talked and spoken about a few nutraceuticals. We’ve spoken about curcumin, magnesium, collagen. Fish oils? And also, what about other therapies, like, for instance… Okay. So, keying into the emotional state of the person. Music. Music.

Jesse: Music therapy. Yep.

Andrew: Sound. Yeah.

Jesse: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, that, they’re really good relaxation tools. They are some of the most powerful ways to calm someone down, and bring a person into a parasympathetic state, where they can heal. And I think it’s really, really underappreciated. I certainly wasn’t exposed to it in my undergraduate or postgraduate training. It’s only further on that I’ve been able to really understand and educate myself in the benefits of music, sound, and vibrational therapy. And having played music a lot of my life, and really appreciating the effect that vibration and sound has on the body, in my practice, I think has really given me such a powerful tool to help people to relax. You know, so many of us have a trouble doing that. Especially when we’re in pain, our nervous system is sensitized. So, any kind of input, external input, is really, really powerful. And yeah, I definitely use it as a way to help people manage their stress, physical stress, emotional stress. And it’s so, such a nice complement to] the therapy, the session, to add in some sound therapy at the end, I find that it’s just leaves people in a state of just total calm, and I often find that they’re able to get so much more out of the session, because it takes them into that state of parasympathetic rest and digest just a little bit more. And that’s really ultimately what they’re here to learn how to do, and how to, cross they need to experience. And so, yeah, I use sound a lot.

Andrew: Yeah. Just a last question, and that is, we touched on it just before about the tyramine, histamine, sort of, implications with pain, in migraine. But what about the importance of digestion in limb pain, for instance? How important is that? How much do you work on digestion?

Jesse: Yeah. Digestion itself, I don’t go deep into fixing a person’s digestion. I more look at whether their digestion is causing their pain. So, for example, we know that T5 to T9, or even T12, innervates the abdominal region, the abdominal organs. So, if someone’s experiencing pain in their thoracic spine, in their mid-back, or their abdominal region, and that pain could be coming from a reaction to gluten, let’s say, that they’re just not even aware of, and it’s only triggered from time to time, but they perceive it as being, you know, “Oh, I did something to my back,” or “my ribs are hurting.” Or, you know, “I’ve got this pain in my abdomen, and it’s there. I can feel it. What muscle have I torn?” But it’s really, when you take a good examination, you realize it’s actually coming from your organ, from your stomach, or from, you know, the colon, and you can palpate that and feel that. And so, making people aware of that is really important, because that’s that viscerosomato reflex arc, where the viscera is actually turning impulses to the spinal cord, and then it’s then overloading and going into the corresponding structures, somatic structures. So, giving abdominal massages, heat packs, relaxation therapies, or even, again, just to someone who can educate them a bit more about what they’re actually putting into their bodies, and how their digestion works. Yep.

Andrew: Jesse, I’d struggle with thinking that the rest of your cohort would have thought like you. What… Like, you are unique. Why are you so different? Who taught you?

Jesse: Well, I think it’s, you kind of just look at things slowly, over time, and you realize, you pick up patterns of what’s actually occurring to you, and a lot of this stuff is just straight out of the anatomy and physiology textbooks. You know, we’re all taught it, but I think it’s just being very conscious of what it is that you’re seeing, and what it is that you’ve learned, and putting those two things together.

Yeah, I’ve been lucky that my education has been quite good from the get-go. You know, my mum was a teacher and an educator, and she actually taught me a lot of my early childhood education. I was taught by her. So, she was my teacher. And I was very close with her, and she actually taught me a lot about how to learn, and I think that continued through university, and then, beyond that, I’ve always been looking at those extra additional courses or certificates or trainings that sort of piqued my interest. And everything that I do is really just from my own passion and interest. I’m not doing it because I feel like I have to. It’s really, I’m curious. And I think that curiosity has helped me put an interesting sort of mix of knowledge together.

Andrew: Hell, yeah. Jesse, I’ve gotta say, I know that you wouldn’t, probably wouldn’t like this thought, but we really need to clone you. I’m amazed at your unique approach, and how holistic you are. But you bring it back to extremely good training. But I love what you say. You were taught by somebody who taught you how to think. You weren’t just given something. You explored. I really, seriously. I take my hat off to you. You’re a quite a unique man. A unique therapist. And I think your patients who are under your care are extremely lucky. I wish there were more of you. Well done. And thanks so much for joining us today, and giving us a little sneep inside that mind of yours. It’s quite incredible.

Jesse: Thanks so much, Andrew. I appreciate it. Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Andrew: Absolutely wonderful chatting, too. And thank you, everyone, for joining us today. Remember, you can catch up on all the show notes, and the other podcasts, on the Designs for Health website. I’m Andrew Whitfield-Cook. I’m gob smacked, you can see. This is “Wellness by Designs.”