Andrew: This is “Wellness by Designs,” and I’m your host, Andrew Whitfield-Cook. Joining us today is Lee Holmes, who’s a clinical nutritionist, a yoga teacher, a whole foods chef, and an author. Lee also runs a four-week online program called “Heal Your Gut.” Welcome to “Wellness by Designs,” Lee. How are you?

Lee: I’m great. Thank you so much for having me. It’s really good to be here.

Andrew: Absolute pleasure to have you on the show. Now, Lee, firstly, I’ve gotta thank you for your time today. I know you’re very busy, but let’s go back into history. What first got you interested in gut health?

Lee: Yeah. I’ve always kind of been interested in health, but I was working at the ABC in Sydney, about twelve years ago, and I got really sick, sort of really quite rapidly. Lost a lot of weight, my hair was falling out, I was covered in hives. I kept on going to work, as you do. I was a parent, kept on pushing myself, till eventually I couldn’t really go on any further, and I went through the medical system, which I found to be really quite complex, because I felt like I was being pushed from one doctor to another, with no real answers to anything at all. So, then, what happened was I eventually was diagnosed with a autoimmune disease, which, eight years later was diagnosed as Crohn’s, and something called fibromyalgia, which was I felt really achy and stiff when I got up. So, from there, I was put on this concoction of different prescription medications, which really messed me and threw me around a lot. And I started to get really interested in gut health. Back then, I said to them, “Do you think this has anything to do with diet? Because I notice when I eat certain things, my symptoms really flare up, especially things like MSG and a lot of the preservatives in foods.” I was putting Lean Cuisine in the microwave, and, you know, for lunch, at work, and it would just make me feel really itchy and tired after eating. And they said, “No, no. Nothing to do with your gut whatsoever,” even though I have since been diagnosed with Crohn’s.

So, I was sort of on that sort of journey of learning about natural health, and I really intrinsically thought it was my gut. So I went home, after being in hospital at St. Vincent’s for a little bit, and started to cook really simple foods, because I just felt like I needed to just pare everything back and just go back to simple eating and whole foods and things like that. And I did that, and it really helped a lot. And I was using garlic instead of a lot of the antibiotics I was given, and curcumin and turmeric. And as you know, they, even my gastroenterologist is prescribing them to his patients now, which is amazing. So I started to look at different food and food ingredients, and it really helped me, and I got so passionate about gut health. I went back to study. For six years, I studied clinical nutrition, and I did two courses in clinical nutrition. And then I started my blog, “Supercharged Food,” and yeah, it kind of just went from there, and I really do feel like the gut is the epicenter to health, and that was kind of where I knew everything was stemming from. That’s how I got into it.

Andrew: Lee, can I ask you? Because this has been something of interest to me for some years. You mentioned paring back the foods, for a certain time.

Lee: Yeah.

Andrew: So, keeping them simpler.

Lee: Yeah.

Andrew: I’ve seen a gastroenterologist, for instance, in the mid-north coast of New South Wales, putting his, now, I think it was ulcerative colitis patients on…

Lee: Yeah.

Andrew: And this was a milk-based protein, high-calorie, liquid.

Lee: Mm.

Andrew: But it was only for a short period of time. Now, admittedly, it was dairy-based, and a lot of people react to dairy, and I get it…

Lee: Mm-hmm.

Andrew: I get our preponderance to try and avoid dairy. But I wonder if all of these different types of things, even, like, the carnivore diet, for autoimmune disease…

Lee: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Andrew: Whatever sort of diet it is, when they’re pared back into a simple thing, is it that it’s oligoantigenic? Is it that part of this rest for the gut is just saying, can you just leave me alone for a bit, and just give me one or two things to think about, rather than 20 million?

Lee: Yeah.

Andrew: But then the job of healing begins. What…take me through this.

Lee: I actually completely agree with that, and everything that you’re saying. I know for me, personally, and a lot of my clients, when you pare things back, I think less is more. We can really overwhelm our gut, and especially with taking things, and lots of different things, and it’s just, the system, when you have a basis of inflammatory issues, or you have immune dysregulation, which obviously, you know, the immune system, a lot of it is kind of produced, your immune cells are produced in the gut. When you think about that, paring it back and going really simple with food, for me, definitely helped me so much. And then, trying to do things that are cooked, or, like, smoothies, just something really gentle on the digestion, so you’re not then digesting lots of salads and nuts and really harsh things. I found for me, that really helped as well with things like bloating, and things like pain after eating and things like that. So, I think just going back to basics, and a very simple diet, even just for a little period of time, allows the body and the gut to sort of reset itself and calm down, and really calm down any inflammation and what have you. For the Crohn’s, it really helped me a lot. And then, trying to eat more sort of whole foods, if you can, I found that that was really helpful, because I wasn’t then trying to process artificial sugars and all these other things that kind of are quite difficult for the body to actually process. So, yeah, I completely agree with you. Yeah.

Andrew: So, obviously, though, at some stage, you have to start reintroducing foods. And, you know, we need to think about healthy choices rather than unhealthy choices. So, how do you do that with patients, particularly when they’ve got bad habits that they’ve hopefully, we’d love to say they’ve left them behind, but they’re habits? You know?

Lee: Yeah.

Andrew: How do you prevent patients from falling back into the same old rut?

Lee: Yeah. I think, certainly, if you give them too many things to do, it’s overwhelming for them. So I try and change one thing a day. So, whether it’s getting up in the morning and having a smoothie with lots of different, like, fiber-rich veggies or some fruit, or some good fats, some flaxseed, that kind of thing. I find that that kinda sets them up for the day. Whereas if they start going back to their old habits, and in the morning, especially just eating cereal with lots of sugar, and lots of dairy and what have you, it kind of, just, they’re like, “Oh, I feel terrible anyway. I may as well just eat what I want,” so I try and just start with simple things. Simple things like just having a smoothie, or maybe just cooking meals ahead, or maybe just having a little food prepared, or just very, very simple things, and definitely nothing too much for them. I find that they just, they’re busy. Everyone’s busy and working, and they have families and things like that, so it is very difficult. So, yeah, paring it back again, going back again to simplicity. What do you think?

Andrew: Well, I totally agree with you. Like…

Lee: Yeah.

Andrew: The, I mean, we know from historical data that people who try and break a habit very often fall back into the same habit. And I think you’re right in that people try and change the whole thing, the whole thing in one fell swoop, and then they get confused and fall off the wagon. So, this gentle change, you know, and I think also a knowledge of why they’re changing that thing a day, or even every week, whatever they’re doing, about, “Okay, this is why I’m doing that. That’s why I’m doing this,” then that can give them the reasoning for the changing their habits to healthy habits.

Lee: Yeah. Absolutely.

Andrew: Lee, can I ask you, at the beginning, you mentioned the two diagnosis. One of them was Crohn’s, and forgive me. I missed the other one.

Lee: Oh, fibromyalgia, which is sort of, like, feels like arthritis. So, I was waking up in the morning so stiff. I felt like a 99-year-old woman. I was like, “Why am I so stiff?” And fibromyalgia is a really funny one, because, it’s, you can also feel it when the weather changes or the barometric pressure changes. It’s really, it’s a really bizarre thing. You feel stiff and you feel achier, a little bit like arthritis. So, yeah. And you also, you have gut issues with it too. It was all kind of interrelated, and I feel that I’ve done a lot of research on this and Crohn’s, and it’s almost like a triangle, where you have some kind of irritable bowel disease, and then you have fibromyalgia on top of that, and some kind of inflammatory issue, or a bladder issue as well. It’s like a, it’s like a triangle, I’ve noticed, with clients as well.

Andrew: Yeah. You’re mentioning also, you know, being a mother, trying to push through once the symptoms appeared, and of course, it just ran your body into the ground, this whole stress response being one of the major drivers of inflammation, certainly in the 21st century.

Lee: Absolutely.

Andrew: Yeah. Take us through that. How do you talk to your patients?

Lee: Yeah. I think that stress is…there’s research out there, as you know, that stress can actually strip the body of good bacteria, so your microbiome goes out of balance. And when your microbiome goes out of balance and your gut’s out of whack, there are so many things that happen. Your sleep’s affected. As you know, your skin, you get skin disruptions, all of that sort of stuff. So, what I say to them is just to, yeah, again, just go back to basics. And I became a yoga and meditation teacher when I was kind of, like, learning nutrition. And I found that Vedic meditation, which is something that I do for, like, 20 minutes a day, was just a little thing that I could do in the morning, that really set me up for the day, and really helped with any kind of nervous system dysregulation. Because I feel like nervous system dysregulation, and feeling wired, a lot of people are stressed and anxious and wired, if we can get to sort of the bottom of that, it’s gonna help all of the other things that happen. So, for me, it’s, like, little things, like breathing, doing some deep breaths, a bit of meditation. Also, mindful eating. So, I do talk to my clients a lot about mindful eating.

And also, you know, when…a lot of them are, you know, working. They eat on the run, they don’t sit down, they don’t chew their food properly, and then they’re bloated, they’re gassy afterwards, and they’re like, “Oh, why am I so… Why have I got all these symptoms?” So, sometimes it’s just simple things like that, like mindful eating, and paying a little bit more attention to sitting down and chewing better, and that, definitely, those little things actually do really help digestion as well, I’ve found. And also, the other thing is going for a little walk after eating, which can help stimulate digestion, and that’s, those little things have been very helpful for my clients, and they find them easier than having a whole regime of things to do. You know?

Andrew: One of the interesting symptoms I’ve seen in, or do you call this a symptom or a sign…in patients is, they’ll eat in a sympathetically-stimulated state.

Lee: Mm. Yep.

Andrew: But the feeling of bloatedness is not in the stomach area. The feeling of bloatedness that they get, immediately, after meal is actually in their lower abdomen.

Lee: Right. Okay.

Andrew: Yeah.

Lee: That’s a good point.

Andrew: And I find that, hmm, like, are we talking about sympathetic/parasympathetic nervous stimulation? Are we talking about, like, an immediate effect on fermentation? Mm?

Lee: Yeah.

Andrew: Do we have an answer there? Do we have any clues?

Lee: I don’t know. Is it to do with the small intestine, and the B12 and iron that you’re kind of trying to get from your food, and…because some, a lot of people, like, with my Crohn’s, it’s actually in the small intestine. So, a lot of people have issues there, and then you do get that, like, lower loading from that as well. So it could be that, yeah, perhaps.

Andrew: Yeah. So, I remember going through this conundrum, going, “Okay. Do I give her a digestive enzyme, because she’s eating in a sympathetically-stimulated state, and talk about stress and vagus nerve stimulation and things like this?”

Lee: Yeah, right.

Andrew: Or, do I give her something for the lower bowel, like a, you know, an anti-bloating type…

Lee: Yeah.

Andrew: …what do we call it, a carminative you know?

Lee: Yeah, a carminative. Yeah.

Andrew: Mm.

Lee: Yeah, that’s a good point. A lot of people just stated to me, “I feel like I’m pregnant, I’m six months pregnant. My tummy’s so distended.”

Andrew: Yeah.

Lee: They haven’t really made the distinction between the two. So, that, yeah, that’s really interesting.

Andrew: Do ever favor, like, always starting at the top, or “Nah, let’s get things moving first, and then we’ll go back to digestion later?” Do you ever favor one over the other?

Lee: You know what? I feel like everyone is so different. And when I see that it’s a stress-related response, or a nervous system dysregulation, I kind of work more on getting them to try and relax, and have more calmative approaches to what they’re actually doing, rather than immediately jumping to things to give them, like supplements and things like that. I try and work more on that, if that makes sense.

Andrew: Yeah. Absolutely. What about, though, herbs that support the nervous system in, during times of stress?

Lee: Yeah. I think a lot of people are now looking to ashwagandha. Like, a lot…you know how a lot of people talk about that at the moment.

Andrew: Mm-hmm.

Lee: I think that that’s been quite helpful for people. Some people, like, if they’re constipated and things like that, and have a nervous thing, sometimes magnesium is something that I look to for clients as well. Also, when looking at the whole microbiome, I would look at, like, a symbiotic-type product, with a probiotic/prebiotic digestive enzyme and dietary fiber in one. Because I feel like fiber is very underrated when it comes to gut health. And, you know, a lot of people have been on paleo diets as well, and they’re not getting enough prebiotic-rich fibers. They’re going, “Oh, I can’t eat that sweet potato, because I’m paleo,” but then they’re all coming to me with gut issues, going, “Oh, I was on paleo and now my gut’s not working properly. I’m not…” and they’re not getting enough prebiotic-rich fibers. So, yeah, I talk to them about their diet a little bit. We’ll go through what they’re eating, and make a few little tweaks to start with.

Andrew: Do you know, one of the things about paleo that interested me is that when I… I need to keep a person’s name out of this, so… This person basically formulated the dietary requirements for a symposium.

Lee: Yeah.

Andrew: And when I went out there, expecting to see meat upon meat upon meat upon meat, I was met with salad upon salad upon salad upon salad, and there’s some meat. It was not the carnivore diet at all. The paleo diet was largely plant-based. And I thought about it. And I thought, “Hang on. So, while these Neolithic humans were chasing down the meat prize, they had to eat along the way.”

Lee: Right. Yeah.

Andrew: And the things that were along the way were berries and tubers and things like that.

Lee: That’s it. That’s it. Yeah.

Andrew: So I thought, so, is it that we actually got what we thought something was, paleo diet? Is it that we’ve just been doing it wrong?

Lee: I think, like, I don’t subscribe to any particular diets, like keto, paleo. For me, it’s all about balance, whole foods, rainbow, eat the rainbow, things like that. Wrong and right, like, for me, it’s like the angel/devil thing. I think, for a lot of my clients as well, they have that thinking, and so it’s very black and white. Like, they’re very much like them, “I can’t eat this,” and it sets you up for a bit of, you know, eating disorder territory, when they’re kind of going down that road. So, I basically try and make things… I don’t try to subscribe to any diets and say we’re doing it right or wrong sort of thing. Does that make sense?

Andrew: Yeah. Absolutely. And it’s a very salient point you make about the language that we use, that can, in a susceptible person, lead them down an eating disorder time…sort of framework.

Lee: Yeah. I agree. And things like orthorexia, where I have some clients who, they don’t just eat clean, they eat squeaky clean. And because of that, they’re anxious about what they eat. And then that anxiety sets them up for more dysregulation, and it’s just a cycle, I’ve found. So, yeah, I try and just keep things nice and gentle. I’m a very gentle nutritionist, and I just try and get them to choose for themselves and think a bit more for themselves. Give them the options and that kind of thing, but just say to them, you know, don’t be too strict on yourself, because that’s just, who wants to live like that?

Andrew: Well, it’s a good point, you know? Like, it’s something that certain cultures really get right. You know, the Mediterranean culture, it’s not just about food.

Lee: Agree.

Andrew: It’s about the social interaction. In fact, Amanda Archibald, she said the best word, and it was “conviviality.”

Lee: I like that.

Andrew: There’s this… I love the word. So…

Lee: Yeah.

Andrew: …each meal was this family getting together and talking, discussing, even fighting, and yelling, and getting rid of energy, and…

Lee: Yeah.

Andrew: …you know? Like, that sort of…

Lee: Yeah. I love that.

Andrew: It’s a real interesting word. Yeah.

Lee: I wonder if you were the same, but remember growing up and, like, 6:00 was dinner, and you would sit around the table, and even if you were arguing with your siblings or whatever, you knew that 6:00 was dinner, and you would sit down around the table, and you’d maybe talk about your day or whatever, or have an argument with your sister or whatever. But still, there was that beautiful coming together, and connection around food. And I, for me, food is so important, and it’s something to really connect all of us. No matter what diet you just prescribe to, or anything like that, I feel like just coming together and enjoying food is so, so important for us as a society, and I feel like we’ve really lost that, because, these days, you look at a table, and even if they’re sitting down, there’s someone on a mobile phone. There could be a computer open. Someone’s watching TV. We’re kind of disconnected, don’t you think, sometimes, in some places?

Andrew: Absolutely. Absolutely. And we can go into the causes of that. Started with TV maybe, but, yeah, it’s amazing. It’s absolutely amazing, this disconnection. And so, to ask a question about how do you approach that challenge with families?

Lee: Yeah. So, what I try and do is, it depends on, you know, whether they’ve got young kids. Like, with younger kids, it’s a bit easier, I think, because, you know, they do have that sort of meal time. But with older kids, older kids at school and things like that, they’re kind of all over the place. So, what I say to them is, one day a week, why don’t you just cook a meal at home, and then all have it together, if it’s a Friday night or a Thursday night, and just have that one day a week where you’re all together. At least that’s starting something, something good, I think, that’s… So, I just, yeah. That’s how I kind of talk to them about it. And they do enjoy it, and yeah, I’ve had really good feedback on that.

Andrew: Yeah. It’s, my wife, being the incredible human that she is, very early on got our… Well, she is. She’s amazing. Very early on, got our kids interested in preparing meals, and helping, and seeing how, you know, this lovely salad doesn’t make itself. There’s a process you have to go through to do this, and, you know, you don’t mulch it up, you just, it’s a light toss, and, you know, when you’re doing this, don’t stir it in too fast.

Lee: Yeah, I love that.

Andrew: So, there was this real interest.

Lee: Yeah.

Andrew: And both of my sons have taken that, and they eat so healthily. Now, they went through their time. They did go through their time.

Lee: Yeah.

Andrew: But, you know, the sugar and the milk and all that sort of thing, but both of them are so… They’re not, as you say, squeaky, but they’re appreciative of good, healthy food.

Lee: Yeah.

Andrew: And they enjoy it.

Lee: Oh, that’s really good. I think food culture, there’s a lot to be said for food culture, and passing down beautiful things, like your wife is to your children, and hopefully, they’ll then pass it down to their children. I think that if you’ve grown up in a food culture where it’s instant pasta, with a can of tomato sauce that you pour over the top, it’s really hard to break the culture. However, at any time, I, when I do talks about this, actually, at any time, you can change your food culture. You don’t have to be stuck on, you know, how you grew up. And I think that what your wife is doing is just so beautiful, and I think it’s really… Yeah. It’s lovely. It’s really lovely.

Andrew: But we…it’s missing… Like, I remember podcasting with Lisa Moane, who’s a, I’m gonna get it wrong, a feeding specialist, SOS feeding specialist.

Lee: Yeah.

Andrew: And she was making really good points to me that topsy-turvy’d what I thought we should be doing to help kids get to the table.

Lee: Okay.

Andrew: Yeah. And it was rich. Oh, this was so interesting…

Lee: What was she saying?

Andrew: …because… Well, I would say things like, you know, for instance, don’t feed the pet at the table. And she said, “No, no. No.” I’ll have arguments with parents about this. She said, “If that’s a way that the child will enjoy food, that will normalize food, I don’t care if the dog eats it.”

Lee: Yeah.

Andrew: If the child says, “I’m gonna feed them…”

Lee: Yeah, I would be the same.

Andrew: Yeah. So…

Lee: Yeah. Yeah, I agree with that.

Andrew: Yeah, to get the good, nutritious food into our child, that might have issues with texture, or might have neuroatypical behaviors that, you know, heightens their anxiety and stops them eating healthy meals, I don’t care about so-called these, you know, manners that we grew up with. I’m all for breaking them.

Lee: And also, kids need to have a diverse microbiome, so if they’re, like, touching the dog and then eating, I mean, that’s not too bad.

Andrew: Oh. There’s a good one.

Lee: That’s how we get the diverse microbiome, right?

Andrew: Well, there’s a beautiful segue to our next question. Tell us more. Tell us more about the microbiome.

Lee: So, the way that I look at it is like an Amazonian rainforest, if you can imagine, you know, the birds and the butterflies and the flora and fauna and all that sort of stuff. And I think when I talk to people about the microbiome, just in a simple terms, I liken it to this rainforest, where you’ve gotta look after the soil, because it all kinda starts with the soil, don’t you think? So I talk to them about things like colostrum, zinc, vitamin D, vitamin C, things to really build that healthy soil. And then you’ve got the trees, that are your probiotics. So, you wanna be eating a lot of probiotic-rich foods if you can. I know there’s all different strains, and there’s, the problem with probiotics, as you know, is some of them only last minutes in the gut, some last days, some last months. There’s, everyone’s got a particular different strain, different strains of them in the body. So that’s where prebiotics, I think, is so important. That’s where they come in, to feed the good bacteria in the gut. So I just say that the trees are like, you know, little babies with their mouths open. You have to constantly feed them with great prebiotic-rich foods, sweet potato, chicory, dandelion, asparagus, onions, peas, those kinds of foods. And then your ecosystem will be thriving, because it’s working well, and then things will flourish, the trees will flourish, and it is an ecosystem in there, and that’s kind of how I personally look at it. Yeah.

Andrew: Yeah. Totally agree. I was speaking with somebody else earlier, and mentioning a paper, one of my favourite papers, one of my favourite authors, Catherine Lozupone, and she talks about how we have our microbiota…

Lee: Yeah.

Andrew: …and we like to think of that as a garden, even though it’s not a flora, but anyway.

Lee: Yeah.

Andrew: But we think about that as a garden, and what she was talking about in one of these papers was about, it’s not just one insult. One insult is like, you know, a golf swing taking a divot out of the golf…

Lee: Yep.

Andrew: …fairway, right?

Lee: Yeah.

Andrew: But it’s these multiple insults, that keep chipping away at your garden…

Lee: Agree.

Andrew: …at your soil, and that’s what changes the grass.

Lee: Agree. Yeah. And I think, to me, a lot of, and in, with a lot of my clients, some of the things that really throw that balance off are things like smoking, alcohol, antibiotics, a high-sugar diet, processed foods, inflammatory sort of foods, and things like that. So, they can really throw that balance off. And yeah, I kind of talk to them about that, and try and encourage them to eat a little bit more fresh if they can, and maybe look at a few recipes online if they like them, or in books, and then, yeah, try and start that way, just very simply.

Andrew: Yeah. What about, we’d spoke earlier about probiotics. Single versus, you know, mixtures.

Lee: Multi-strain.

Andrew: Yeah. Prebiotics included. Do you have a phase where you might say, “Okay, let’s start off with the prebiotic first, and add the probiotic,” or “Let’s start off with the probiotic?” You also mentioned colostrum.

Lee: Mm.

Andrew: So, there’s now this non-milk, non-dairy serum…

Lee: Non-dairy. Yeah. I’ve heard that.

Andrew: …immunoglobulin, which I’ve, like, I’ve fallen in love with it.

Lee: Yeah.

Andrew: It’s actually saved me from…

Andrew: And it was a dodgy prawn.

Lee: Really?

Andrew: It seriously was the dodgy prawn thing.

Lee: Wow. Now I’m interested now in this.

Andrew: Oh, this is great. But anyway. So, do you have a time period where you’ll start off on something and move to something else? Like pre  to pro

Lee: Yeah. A lot of my clients, you know, they’re on a certain budget, and they don’t want to go overboard with a lot of microbiome mapping, and doing all the expensive tests and things like that. So I do try and start with food to start with, and take out some of the things that are disrupting their gut. So, kind of, at a first thing, we’ll look at food. We’ll try and do it through food, and then see how they’re going and things like that. And then I would look to probably some kind of just low-level multi-strain probiotic, just to see whether that’s gonna help the engine work properly, and get going, and refuel them and give them energy, and create a microbiome that’s actually generating energy for the body, which is what you want. And then, there are some immune system-based probiotics that I am really interested in, I’m learning more about them, and I think they are good, because when you think about inflammation and the link between the immune cells talking to your microbiota, that is a real conversation that is happening there between the two. And I think, for me, I would look at maybe some kind of multi-strain and see how they go. But definitely along the way, fibre and prebiotics, and trying to get it through food. I would recommend that.

Andrew: Soluble versus insoluble fibre. Need to cover that one.

Lee: I think a balance of everything. I think soluble, insoluble. I think resistant starch is also really important. Like, cooked and cooled rice is a good form of resistant starch, banana flour. I would be looking at those as well. Like, sort of a balanced sort of amount of fibre, but something easy, that they can pick up from the supermarket. Like, banana fibre, banana flour, you can buy in the supermarket now, which is really good, make some pancakes. I’ve got loads of recipes on my website for all these kind of foods, which is really good. Yeah, simple ways to get fibre, not necessarily taking a big fibre supplement that your body will kind of start to get used to and rely on. Yeah.

Andrew: Oh, okay. So, weaning off stuff. Fibre, for instance, you know, like, for instance, you know, in the old days, when it was the only thing that we had, fructooligosaccharides made from chicory…

Lee: Yeah.

Andrew: …40% of your patients got excessive wind, and went, “Nah.” How do you…

Lee: And IBS symptoms.

Andrew: Yeah. So, how do you introduce patients to fiber, you know, particularly what you’ve spoken about, banana and partially hydrogenated

Lee: For me, it’s a gamut. Always goes back to the smoothie. Or the soup. And so it’s, like, fiber-rich veggies, or fiber-rich fruit and veggies. So, when I make a smoothie, I’ll put [inaudible 00:30:46] in there. I’ll put carrot in there. I’ll put, I also put sometimes, like, coriander in there, and I put a little black leaf parsley in there. I do cucumber in there. I do… Yeah, I try and kind of mix it up with something simple that they can just throw into a blender. That’s how I kind of start. And then trying to have more fiber at each meal, if they can. So, fiber-rich veg, or maybe some, also, like, things like some lentils, if they can manage them. A lot of people with gut issues, I’ve noticed, lentils and things like that are quite hard for them to digest. So we go really slowly with that.

Andrew: Yeah. What about chickpeas?

Lee: Chickpeas as well, sometimes bloating, cause bloating, a bit hard to digest, but making them into a hummus, and adding…sometimes garlic, as well, is a bit hard for people, but if they’ve got that microbiome which is unbalanced, sometimes garlic is actually quite good for them. So, it’s just finding a balance with ingredients, and I’ll give them some little recipes to try, and see how they go.

Andrew: And do you ever find that adding things like turmeric into your smoothie helps to, like, take that inflammatory component, that…I’m gonna be wishy-washy and say, upsetting component, out of sometimes those gas-forming foods?

Lee: Yeah. I really do. I really, really do. A lot of those Indian spices are like that as well. They’re very calmative. Ginger is also really good. So I’ll throw ginger into a smoothie. Obviously, the curcumin component of the turmeric is the potent ingredient that can really help with inflammation. There’s so much research now out there, and I’m so happy about all the research on turmeric. I take turmeric myself, or curcumin, every day, and I also take fish oil, and I’ve found those two things are really great for inflammation, personally.

Andrew: That was another one. Fish.

Lee: Yes.

Andrew: Red emperor, anyone? Anyway. So, with regards to fish, we’re talking… Mainly, fish is healthy. Great. There are some people who have gastroesophageal reflux disease, GERD, and fish sometimes upsets them.

Lee: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Agree.

Andrew: It’s a protein. I can’t remember. What do you do in that sort of instance?

Lee: Yeah. It’s really hard for people with reflux, especially with fish oil and fish oil capsules, and concentrated fish oil. So, if you’re looking for that anti-inflammatory component, I would give them, I would, I have this great flaxseed cracker recipe, which I make. Or I’d give them something…I’d get them to put flaxseed in their smoothie, and try and see if they’re okay with different types of fish, like white fish or salmon or things like that. Maybe if they’re okay with tuna for them, that could be helpful for them as well, sardines, those kinds of things. So, we just do it in stages.

Andrew: Got it. And I also have a question about the different forms of zinc. There’s a, it’s like zinc carnosine, for instance. Have you used this?

Lee: Yeah. No. I haven’t.

Andrew: Right.

Lee: And zinc is normally, when I’m speaking to my patients, what I try and do is, because they are trying to save money and they’re on a budget and things like that. I try and find, if they’ve got issues, I try and find a supplement that will cut across a few different areas that they need. So, magnesium, calcium, zinc, together with, you know, maybe, something else with it as well, maybe turmeric, which is gonna kind of help them in a few ways. That’s what I do. But I don’t generally prescribe single-ingredient, or single vitamins or minerals like that.

Andrew: Mm. And where can we learn more, Lee? You’ve got your book, right? Tell use about

Lee: Yeah. I have my book. Oh, my book is here. This is my latest book. I’ve got 11 books, but this is book number 11. And…

Andrew: Oh, my goodness.

Lee: Yeah. So, it’s called “Nature’s Way to Healing: A Long COVID Guide,” because I contracted long COVID after getting COVID. And it’s, for anyone, this book is for anyone that has post-viral fatigue, chronic fatigue, post-viral issues. So it’s a really good one for that. There’s 30 recipes in there. And I taught… There’s a protocol in there too, so… And I worked with a naturopath on the book as well, and I’ve done a nutritional component of it, and I’ve worked with doctors from all over the world on this book, and researched it. So, yeah, that’s it. It’s called “Nature’s Way to Healing: A Long COVID Guide.”

Andrew: I love your work, Lee. I love your practical approach to things about… Because our whole civilization is based around eating, around food, and we need to recapture healthy habits, rather than the unhealthy habits that we see so often.

Lee: Yeah. Totally agree.

Andrew: So, Lee, thank you so much for taking us through how, you know, having a joyful experience with food can impact on our microbiota and therefore our health. Thank you so much for joining us on “Wellness by Designs” today.

Lee: Yeah. My pleasure. Thank you for having me.

Andrew: It’s our pleasure to have you on board. Remember, we’ll put up all of the resources we’ve discussed in today’s podcast, and there’s the other podcasts on the Designs for Health website. I’m Andrew Whitfield-Cook. This is “Wellness by Designs.”