Liza: Thank you. It’s an honor.

Amie: An absolute pleasure. Well, look, before we dive into the juicy topic we’re gonna be chatting about today, I’d love to hear more about how you got started in complementary medicine, where being located in remote and regional parts of Australia came into this, and also your role on the NHAA board and through Southern Cross University, like, how you’re really, I guess, injecting your passion and love into the landscape of our profession.

Liza: Yeah, okay. There’s lots of questions there.

Amie: Yes.

Liza: So, my journey, I’m located in Dubbo, New South Wales, and I’ve been here since the late…late 2003. And I was, at that stage, an early career naturopath. I was in, I think, four years out. I came…we relocated for work, for my husband’s work. And I was pretty devastated, actually, at the time, thinking that my profession would be over. I didn’t think that I would be able to earn a living as a naturopath out here, because there wasn’t really anyone out here. I wasn’t sure about what I could do. And as I’ve learned in the last 20-something years, it’s quite, quite different, and I have a passion in chronic health, environmental health, and just complex chronic health disease. My journey into naturopathy, I’ve actually been exposed to naturopathic lifestyle since I was about 3. So, my parents got into it when I was a toddler, along with my large family. And so I’ve always had that background, I suppose, in holistic care and lifestyle medicine, food as medicine. And when I was in my mid…I think I was 23, I decided I wanted to learn. I was very interested in the mental health aspects and the gut microbiome, and how it impacted, and I decided to study naturopathy back then. So, went to Sydney, and spent a fair bit of time there doing that.

So, that’s kind of my fast-tracked journey. It’s always been in my blood to do what I do. And the, fast-forward, the last decades, I suppose, where I am now with our profession is to really, you know, I am passionate about our profession and being in primary health care, and actually working in a grassroots level. So, that’s my input now, as a board member. I’m really wanting to give back to the profession, and actually pass on, you know, my wisdom, if you like, or anything that I’ve learned over the years. I do have a busy practice, and I’ve seen a lot over the years. And I feel now that I’m in a place to really, to have an opinion, I suppose, with where we sit, in providing care, or best care for people. And the university, well, I’m just really part of the, a community member, if you like, or a professional in the education standards, and just also, they’re wanting to have people like myself who have been doing it for a while, and to give feedback on how we can transition the students coming through. I do a lot of student supervision, so I have a lot of students who come through into my business, and just do the best I can in providing what it is that we do.

Amie: Fantastic. Wow. What a diverse way of sharing all of your gifts and your own experience, which is just absolutely incredible. And the intention for our chat today, actually, is to tap into that a little bit more deeply, as it relates to your geographical location, and working with the demographic that you do. So, you mentioned that you work with some of the most complex chronic disease cases, and as, you know, clinicians have no doubt learned over time, often those really stubborn, tricky, complex chronic cases have got an element of environmental influence in them. If it’s not the primary thing, it’s a significant variable. And when we talk about environmental medicine, that’s very broad. That can include, you know, things like chemicals in our water, and our food, and in our building materials. It includes the electromagnetic climate of the home, for example, and the microbiome of the home, when we look at it through the lens of water damage and mold. But in particular for you, in the area that you’re working in, you’ve got a lot of agricultural chemicals that also layer into the mix, and so I’d love to hear, like, how you approach things when a patient walks through your door, and you see, you know, and this is what it commonly looks like, is lots of different diagnoses that don’t appear to be connected, lots of different symptoms. They often have a laundry list. They’ve often been put in the “too hard” basket by other practitioners who’ve perhaps got a narrower view and scope of medicine. I’d love to hear, like, where do you start, what patterns do you notice, and in particular, knowing what you know about the humans that you take care of in your area, like, how you go about assessing exposure there as well?

Liza: Yeah. This has taken years for me to streamline what I do, and it’s, there isn’t one fit, you know, one model that fits all, but I am located where there are a lot of agricultural chemicals. Also, mining is in the scope of where I am, and also wineries. There’s a lot of wineries. And so they’re three industries, if you like, that do utilize a lot of chemicals. And I am fascinated at whether or not they have an impact on chronic disease, and I really feel they do. And it’s about looking at whether or not that fits that person that walks through the door. So, the way in which I would address people when they come in, I don’t assume that everyone has a toxic load, or a body burden. I just look at the patterns. And I do lots of comprehensive assessment. So, first of all, you really need to actually assess people and ask the right questions. So I do do a lot of intake forms before I even see them, so I already know how their body systems or what they perceive their body systems, whether they’ve got problems. And I also do a timeline journey. So, I’m very interested in people’s where they live, what they do, what their parents did, what their grandparents did. And if they’ve got health issues, even if they’re not diagnosed, but health issues, where those things started, and just having… And also looking at their, yeah, family history. So, what their parents, grandparents, what kind of diseases they have had. They are all the big red flags for me to look at whether there’s a potential body load that we as naturopaths, or holistic professionals can do in order to facilitate healing.

So, that is the beginning of the journey. I also just, I do see people face to face and through telehealth, but I look at them. I have a look at them. I see if they’ve got edema, looking at their eyes, looking at their tongue, their nails, and just getting a feel for what their journey is, and I just have a chat with people, to see, you know, when did things change for them? Or, because obviously, people who come to people like us, they often haven’t responded to normal care. So, they’re the non-responders, the people who have got diabetes, for example, or heart disease, or insulin resistance, or weight that just won’t change, or endocrine issues. They’re just, they’ve done the right thing, they’re doing what they’ve been told, but it hasn’t worked. So, that’s something that I put in my notes and in my brain, to think, “Okay, well, why?” And I do look for patterns. So, I do look for patterns of chronic inflammation, that won’t go away with appropriate treatment. I look at immune function. I look at hormonal dysregulation, skin, and neurological. So, often, there’s a gut/immune/gut/brain connection there, and so these are the patterns. And people don’t often think they’re connected, obviously. They’re coming in because they’re feeling unwell. And, but they’re the things that I do. Mitochondrial function is definitely, I mean, people don’t come in and say, “I’ve got mitochondrial problems,” but that’s what I’m thinking, and that’s what I test. And I do do a lot of testing, so that’s the other final part, is that I will look at bloods. I get standard bloods done, or the GP will do that. I have a fairly good relationship with GPs and specialists in managing and helping work as a team. So, bloods can tell us a lot about how their kidneys and liver, and how their body’s working, and I also do a lot of functional testing, to address the underlying areas. Yeah. So…

Amie: Mm. Well, speaking of patterns, like, I know, when we chatted beforehand, we talked about exposure to farm chemicals, versus heavy metal detox. Are there key red flags in an intake form and symptomatology where you’re like, “Ooh, this looks like heavy metals,” or, “This looks like agricultural chemicals,” or just a general toxic load? Or, is it a matter of you just know there’s an elevated body burden, failure to respond, and testing’s the only way to figure that out?

Liza: Yeah. That’s a great question. It’s really complicated now. It’s not black and white, because we are using more pesticides and fungicides and herbicides in our landscape, in agriculture. It’s increased hugely since the Second World War, but predominantly since the 1970s, it’s just gone up. So that has to be in our water source, in our food, in our soil. And some of those will have heavy metal particles in them, and then we’ve got mining. So, it’s very hard to isolate what it really is. And so, for me, I look… So I do test those, and so I just, I don’t do this straight up. I look at what they’re coming in for, and their risk analysis. So, if they are a person who works in the mines, well, it’s not rocket science that they have exposure. So, you know, we… And they get tested for acute toxic load, but I’m looking at a body load, a body burden, which is then storing in their system, wherever that may be. And so I will do things like organic acids. There are, you can measure urinary glyphosates, to get an idea of whether they’re dumping stuff out. You can do environmental pollutants through urine, because kidney and bowel and skin and hair are the areas of elimination, so that’s where it’s gonna come out. And I do do hair analysis, to look at heavy metal. So, that’s probably, to answer your question, I think, that’s what I would do, but I don’t think that… And not everyone can afford these, by the way, so some people, if, we just have a conversation about the reality that potentially that is having an effect on their health, and then I would go straight back to looking at their liver and their kidney, because the liver and the kidney, and also their autoimmune potential, they’re the red flags and indicators of whether the person is not functioning well in chronic disease, or whether we’re healing. So, sometimes I just do that, you know. We’re looking for different enzymes in liver pathways, to make sure that they’re improving, and they’re doing the best they can with… Because not everyone can remove themselves from that environment. That’s the thing.

Amie: That’s right. You have to balance, you know, that is their livelihood, or the location their family is settled in, and supporting them as best you can.

Liza: Yeah.

Amie: So, looking at, obviously, assessment, in an ideal world, you know, we could access functional testing for everybody, and get the complete picture, but also, once you have enough experience, you don’t even necessarily need to know the agent. You can just see which systems of the body are under load, and actually start to treat. But when you have sort of arrived at that point where you’re gonna start treating, it’s obviously complex cases. It’s not the case of [crosstalk 00:14:47]

Liza: Not that easy.

Amie: It’s not that easy. It’s not just like, “Here’s the basic protocol, and it’ll be a couple of months.” It’s often a journey and a road map that has to be laid out for patients, and it’s different for everyone, of course. But in terms of, like, knowing how to start, and where you wanna take them, what is your thought process as you map out that journey for a client?

Liza: Yeah. This is where I’ve learned lots of lessons over the years, you know, because you can make people very sick if you go in too hard too soon, and you don’t understand what you’re doing. And I think this is where, as naturopathic professionals, we’re a step ahead, because we are trained in treating people holistically, and looking at the organs of elimination, and setting up the body to heal. So, there is a process that I would go through. There are probably six areas. So, first of all, I would definitely do a lot of assessments, so… And I don’t have to do all the testing. But I do see a lot of really sick people, and they’ve done a lot of stuff, so those people are… It’s just individual. So, I will test. If I feel they need it, I do epigenetic testing, and that really helps me understand why you’re the canary in the coal mine, and why you’re not. Because, really, at the end of the day, that’s what I feel. I feel and I see that some people can be exposed to absolutely horrible things, and they seem to live a fairly long life, and without too many problems. And then you’ve got the other people, who are just sick, chronically sick, and I think that’s their epigenetic expression.

So, I do the assessment. That’s number one. Number two is just clean up what they can. So we just start gently. We’re cleaning up their house. We’re cleaning up their, what they’re doing, what they’re putting on their body, in their body. So, we just start talking, and I just drip feed. I don’t overwhelm them, though. I don’t want them to run away and never come back. So, I do that. I also, my third part, depending on what they’re coming in for, is calming down the nervous system, and to really… Because a lot of people I see are quite stressed, or they have mental health potential issues, or neuroinflammation going on. So we bring in lots of techniques and things that will suit them in their lifestyle. So, even just going outside and taking their shoes off and connecting to the earth, doing deep diaphragm breathing, you know, that type of stuff. Learning about going to bed early, and getting the circadian rhythm. So, just bringing in a bit of joy into their life, so, the nervous system connection to allowing the body to be supported and to heal is really important.

The fourth area is where I would focus 100% on reducing inflammation, and this is where I will supplement, or I’ll do food as medicine, but I do do a lot of supplements in regards to that straight up, because there is chronic inflammatory processing. Where it’s coming from exactly, you know, you can go down rabbit holes. But if I can just use, you know, polyphenols, or any sort of herbs, through whatever means I can, I will do, and I have my favorite ones. And so I’ll do that, and then off they go. And then we go into the step five. And then sometimes I can take a while to get the step five, and step five is really looking at your drainage system. So, really looking at the lungs, the organs of elimination. So, your lungs, your kidney, your bowel, your liver bile flow, your skin, and your lymph. So, I really…this is a big part of what I would do in where to start, is to do those first ones, but then we start gently creating, you know, like, getting the urine pH. People go away from my practice in those first appointment or second appointment, where we just really monitor someone’s urine pH, to see how acidic they are, and we just try and flip their body into a much better position, so then they can actually detoxify.

And then finally, the sixth one is really specific detoxification protocols, and that can take a while. I will sometimes not do any of that for two months. I like to set them up first, because if you do too many specifics, they can feel quite sick. You can start moving stuff, particularly if they’re currently exposed to things that they can’t really remove themselves from, or it’s been laying dormant since they were a child, and, you know, it’s there. So, the specific ones are very targeted. I do… A lot of people eventually buy infrared saunas out here, so, that is, definitely, the research is very solid in helping with removing heavy metals, and also chemicals out of our system, and activating that lymphatic system. And, yeah, I do a lot of naturopathic stuff, like bowel cleansing and enemas, and working with colonics. Like, sometimes that is a really important part for some people, because their bowel has just shut down.

So, yeah. So, there’s six areas. It’s not a quick fix, and people definitely, if they have complex chronic diseases, I always say, “Look. You’re with me. If I’m the right person, and I can help you, where this journey is going to be a year or two. This is, you know, you don’t have to see me all the time, but it’s about the long game. And it’s about understanding that your body is designed to heal, and we’re just gonna do the best we can.” Yeah.

Amie: That sounds like such a practical framework, and I think it’s a really valuable thing to have outlined in this conversation, because I know, I’m thinking back, yeah, decades ago as a naturopathic student. It’s so exciting to learn about detox pathways, and the nutrients and the herbs that upregulate and downregulate, and it’s so easy to just jump to, “Oh, that’s fine. I’ll just put you on a detox protocol,” not realizing that actually, in order to heal, someone must be in a parasympathetic nervous system state. And even if they didn’t have mental health issues, the inflammation from toxins and immune system upregulation is going to cause a nervous system response that needs to be addressed.

Liza: Yeah.

Amie: And, you know, and also reducing the body burden where you can, where you have control within your own four walls, is obviously always a great place to start, but in particular, when someone has an occupation that maybe they can’t do much more about outside of PPE, you know, short of changing a job, it just helps to just really lessen that overall, you know, load that the body’s holding. And so, what you’re really saying here is, although a specific detox protocol, based on the organs and tissues that are affected and the things that we know are actually part of that toxin bucket, it’s the last step. And it’s not a quick step, but you actually have to really set someone up, calm their immune system inflammation down, make sure drainage pathways are open, before you start to push things through the body. So, I think that’s a really, yeah, great framework for practitioners to really take on board.

Liza: Yeah. Particularly if you know, and you’ve done good case-taking, and you know that there is a history of potential environmental pollutants that they’ve been exposed to, generation after generation. And this is probably what I don’t think we get taught enough about, and this is what I, you know, moving out into the Central West for me, even though, back in 2003, ’04 I was a bit devastated, thinking that I would never have a successful profession and a career and all that, it was the biggest learning curve for me, and the best move, professionally, because I really got to see what complex chronic diseases do, and what they do to the body, and also how you can actually, as a gung-ho new grad, think, “Yes. I’m gonna specifically do that detox, and it’s gonna work.” You can open up a can of worms and make people quite sick. And I explain that to people. I say, “You know, sometimes having these little toxins in your system, it’s sometimes okay to leave them there. You know, we don’t…there’s no rush. And we just want you to have the happiest life that you can have, and as well as you can,” and the body will chelate and do what it need to do, provided we understand the body, and understand the physiology and that individual, not what we’ve learned in the textbook. And I have done lots of training, so it’s not what I’ve worked out. I’ve done lots of training with amazing doctors over the years, who have done chelation, natural chelation, and nutritional medicine, environmental medicine. And I just listen and observe, and just do the best I can.

But when we bring it back to naturopathic principles, it’s, we have the tools. We have it all there. And we’re the people that can actually educate people. And I do a lot of education, you know? Lots of chatting about, you know, it’s not the end of the world. People live happy, healthy lives, and chronic disease can be reduced. But it’s just understanding… People don’t understand. People don’t understand that there’s loads of plastics. There’s loads of glyphosates in our food. They don’t understand that. So, it’s just doing the best we can. Yeah.

Amie: Yes. I love that. Well, in terms of, like, what would constitute a protocol, we can talk a little bit more about the fancy things in a moment, but, fundamentally, our body runs on nutrients, and addressing mineral deficiencies, which are essentially ubiquitous these days, is something that you pride yourself on addressing before jumping to, you know, some of those other favorites, which we will talk about in a moment, like polyphenols and other more complex protocols. Would you take us through why trace minerals, such as zinc and magnesium and iodine, are so central to recovering from chronic illness?

Liza: Yeah. Yep. I think we forget how important, or we forget to look at the physiology of healing, and understand the baseline. So, we do need to use minerals. So, we have the macrominerals, and we have the trace minerals. And trace minerals, particularly zinc, is extremely important in chelation and healing, because it’s part of a metallothionein. And metallothionein, with the sulfur is key into detoxification of metals and chemicals. So, we, it’s very busy, the old zinc. And, yes, we can eat zinc in our diet, but if you have chronic disease, and you have potentially a body load, you need the trace minerals in order to facilitate detoxification. And molybdenum is a very important one, and iodine. And iodine, we are living in a land, in Australia, if you’re listening from Australia and you live in Australia, we are deficient in iodine. We’re an arid landscape, and so trace minerals, we don’t have a lot of selenium, iodine, zinc in our soils. So therefore, if they’re not in our soils, they’re not in our plants, and we can’t eat them. We don’t get them. So, this is where, if we could do one thing in supporting people, is to understand the power of trace minerals. And just, not overdosing, particularly, except zinc. I will use a lot of zinc, because it is a big part of the picture, in creating the ability for someone to actually assist their body to remove toxic compounds. So, yeah, I am a big fan of trace minerals, and also macrominerals, to allow that pH shift, and creating a really good cell exchange, in order to allow toxins to move, and good stuff to get in. So, it’s the baseline, to me.

Amie: It is. Yeah. It’s fundamentals, isn’t it, that that cellular physiology has to be functioning before we can actually try and upregulate or downregulate other things.

Liza: Yeah. You can’t drag something out when the base is not right. That’s…it’s, you know, and also the cell membrane. So, this is where, you know, the phospholipids and, you know, the cell membrane’s made of fat. We need to make sure that’s [inaudible 00:27:10] So, you know, we should be checking what they’re eating, and whether or not they’ve got those things in their food. Often not, where I live, so far from the ocean, and so that’s another part of the picture that goes really well with the trace minerals. Yeah.

Amie: Another aspect I’d love to ask you about, in terms of calming inflammation, I know, when there’s persistent immunological provocation, we see that innate immune system chronically triggered, and that can, you know, range from low-grade histamine issues all the way through to MCAS. And, of course, inflammation compromises mitochondrial function, and everything is energy-dependent, including detox, so we’ve got to support mitochondria and reduce inflammation, again, before we get to the fancy protocols. What are some of your favorite tools to dial down inflammation, address mast cell sensitivity? What do you like to use in your approach here?

Liza: I like to use broad antioxidants. So, I will use scoping, phenolics, and I use, I love quercetin, in a liposomal form. So, I’m all about absorption, and getting it across the gut wall. So, things like green tea and resveratrol and quercetin, any of the phenolics. Antioxidants, if I can give a broad spectrum to a person who is not well, that, I have learned, over the years and years of treating complex people, and fatigued people, it is the step forward in their treatment, and there are lots of reasons why one specific one would work, but I definitely use… And I do use those as a supplement. If I can get people to juice and all that sort of stuff, I will. I’ll have [inaudible 00:20:04] I’m big fan of green tea. I’m a big fan of herbal teas, actually, so, to try and get people to have their herbal teas, and educate them. But initially, that’s not gonna often happen where I’m located, with the client base that I see, so I will definitely 100% supplement, to reduce that histamine, that inflammation. I will use probiotics at times. It depends. I tell them it’s not fixing the problem per se, but it will actually help us get through the next couple of months, so then it’s easier for them to make changes. Yeah.

Amie: And respond to what you have on the road map, going down the road.

Liza: Yeah. So, I do do… Yeah. I do do symptomatic care. You know, I say, “This isn’t gonna fix it. We’re just gonna dampen down the immune response that’s going a bit crazy at the moment. Let’s calm it down, and then we can move forward.” And once I educate… I do a lot of education, so people understand that I’m not just here to sell them supplements. There is a reason why I am gonna do the symptomatic care, for the first few months while we’re trying to remove stuff, identify what’s going on. Yeah. Yeah.

Amie: Mm. Just before we talk about the detox protocol, and how you sort of triage which organs you start with, I have a question for you that I’m curious about, regarding vitamin D. And my question is around, for many practitioners here in Australia, we work in suburban areas, so, you know, cities, certainly not rural, and most people have indoor jobs, and so vitamin D deficiency is something that, or insufficiency, perhaps, suboptimal levels, is something that we’re coming across, you know, almost without exception in our clients. But in your area, given they’re, you know, outside of mining, where people are working outdoors, I’m curious to know how often you’re coming across that, and also, like, where you see the use of vitamin D, even when someone has perhaps, you know, okay levels.

Liza: Yeah. Good question. So, I see vitamin D deficiency hugely. Hugely. I never see it high unless they’re supplementing. Actually, I had someone yesterday who had elevated vitamin D without supplements. He is a farmer. A lot of farmers out here wear long clothing, so they’re not actually getting sun exposure, to be honest. It’s actually more on the coast where people will, they’ll wear t-shirts, but out here, they don’t. So, they’re covered up big-time, except… Yeah. They’ve got hats, long sleeve, long pants, because of just the arid climate. So, but I did see someone yesterday with really high vitamin D. He has heavy metal exposure. He’s having epilepsy, and so where the specialists have, know that it’s an environmental exposure, and so I haven’t quite worked out why that’s so elevated. He’s quite high, but typically, I see low all the time. It’s a marker of chronic disease. It’s, vitamin D helps with reducing inflammation. It does so many important things. So, it’s, I often supplement with cod liver oil, and then vitamin D, so, because I’m trying to do the fish oils as well, but it is a concern. Yeah. Yeah.

Amie: It certainly is. Yeah. Well, thank you for clarifying that, because I’m certainly, for anyone who’s perhaps doing telehealth with people in regional areas, it might be easy to assume they’re getting more sun, but it’s not the case, by the sounds of it.

Liza: No. Not at all. No. Yeah. And it’s getting utilized at high rates, to mop up the damage of what’s going on behind the scenes. So, you know, it’s… And you just test. Some of, you know, the doctors will test it. It’s very common for GPs to test vitamin D out here now. It kind of started a while ago. And it’s like, it’s just now included. They don’t now wait for the middle-age woman to then check. That was what they used to do. But now it’s pretty important. Yeah.

Amie: Yeah. Oh, that’s wonderful news. Very glad to hear that, especially as more and more evidence comes through about, you know, its influence on genetic expression, the immune system, all of those beautiful things.

Liza: Yeah. Yeah.

Amie: So, I guess, to sort of summarize, leading up to a detox protocol, after a really thorough assessment, and ideally, epigenetics, reducing body burden, where they have the power to do so, calming the nervous system and reducing inflammation, you then arrive at where you start to really shift the body burden, and that includes optimizing drainage pathways, you know, that they’re defecating, urinating, sweating, moving their lymph, and then you sort of arrive at, like, the Taj Mahal of, like, naturopathic medicine, where it’s time to actually get into, you know, the sexy protocol, where you get to use all the fancy tools. But understanding that we’re always treating the individual, and no detox protocol is gonna be exactly the same for others, do you have a rough kind of framework where you triage, you know, the therapeutic order of, you know, tissues, organs, drainage pathway, or, like, how do you pull a protocol together for someone? And is it something you often stage, or do you take a multifaceted approach all at the same time?

Liza: Yeah. It’d be interesting to ask people who see me, “Hey.”

Amie: Wouldn’t it?

Liza: It… Oh, okay. So, how do we break that one down? So, what was the first question?

Amie: The first question was, like, how do you put things in order? So, for example, I commonly start with the gut. Twenty five percent of detox starts there, and you need that in order for phase two detox to work from the liver, so then I’ll look at the liver. But where you kind of slot in, you know, lungs, kidneys, skin, like, how would you put that all together?

Liza: Yeah. Okay. So, it is definitely what they’re presenting with. So, if they’re lung, I don’t always… I calm down the gut, and I keep things… Usually, the gut’s very toxic, and so because it’s, you know, phase three of detox, and so it’s kidneys, I’m really more interested in seeing the kidney, to make sure it’s ready and it’s okay, because I see a lot of kidney issues, because, again, where a lot of toxins are being removed. And even pharmaceutical medication. Like, there’s a lot of medication that people, and I see a lot of people on, you know, 5 to 10 medications. That’s why they’re coming to me. They’re getting side effects. So, you know, they’re, they all have an impact on bowel and kidneys, so I would possibly focus a bit more on that.

The gut, yes. I calm down the storm. I get them to eat as well as they can, and I do a lot of food as medicine. So, people can’t, when they’re not well, they just can’t seem to eat fermentable carbohydrates particularly well, even though we know they should. So I will supplement, you know, non-fermenting fiber. I try and get the gentle…I just keep putting the fiber in, and seeing if that can help chelate. But I focus a lot on liver, and getting clean bile, so I will use amino acids. I use clean things in… When I say clean, less reactive. So, this is where, unfortunately, herbs become an issue, in my practice, because I see people on lots of medications, and they can’t have a lot of herbs, because the specialist won’t allow it, so I’ll use amino acids. So, liver needs amino acids. I use a lot of those, and minerals, in order to set the balance to get the liver flowing better, and the bile, if they’ve got a gallbladder, but to get the bile flowing, because it’s a big part of detoxification, and recovery, with fiber.

And I find, I’ve done lots of stool microbiome testing over the decades, to be honest. And I love it. It’s very expensive. And when people are chelating, their microbiome will change all the time. So, it’s, I just understand what’s happening. And unless they’re coming in with IBD or something like that, I will definitely do microbiome testing, and this is where it’s about the individual care. Let’s, like, what is it? What is hurting them the most? Is it their lungs? Is it their sinus and their chronic sinus? Well, then we’ll do the breathing. We’ll do air purifiers. We’ll do, you know, microbial support if I have to. But, yeah, I’m not sure whether I’m answering your question. I’m going round in circles a little bit, because…

Amie: No, no.

Liza: …it is individual. It’s like, where’s their pain point? Liver, and kidney, and lungs are definitely an area that is important to set them up for success, and then going through there. But amino acids, whether it’s through food. But I will use… And some of the people that I know, like, I have a lot of agronomists who come to me, because they’re trying to, like, they’re walking in chemicals, and they know. They know exactly what’s happening to their body. So, we use… I get really good results with sulfur amino acids. It’s like light and day, with minerals. Light and day.

Amie: Amazing. Well, thank you.

Liza: It is. Yeah.

Amie: It really, that does help clarify things a lot, because I think it’s one thing to go into a case with an idea of here’s, like, the ideal road map for detoxification, but also to consider the person in front of you, and go, “Okay, how do we get you feeling better first?” Take the load off, and also rejig this roadmap, based on what’s presenting. You know, maybe it’s the route of exposure, or it’s the tissue that seems to be the most inflamed, that might be the place that you would start. In terms of, like, your preferred fibers, or herbs for gallbladder support, have you got any favorites you can share with us?

Liza: Yeah. The fibers, I always start with partially hydrolyzed guar gum, because it’s a non-fermenting, and it’s just the safe. That’s the entry level. I say, “We’re gonna have an entry level.” I assess how much fiber they’re having, and often they don’t. We try and work gently in bringing in non-fermentables, because that’s, they’ll come back, number one. And I also will then use a broad spectrum. Like, I have a product that I absolutely love, and I said, “This is the end game.” So, sometimes… And that’s, it’s got soluble, insoluble, and we’re gonna try and get those fibers up, because… And sometimes I start with that. I said, “Let’s start with that, and see what your tummy does.” Because then, it tells me whether we’ve got some funky stuff going on there. So, because…yeah. So, I like slippery elm. I like a little bit of psyllium, not too much, because I find it really upsets sensitive people. And, yeah, all the known prebiotic fibers. I mean, there’s so many coming up now, through the companies, which is great. And, but as many fibers, and I try and do the game of, you know, let’s see how many plant or colored foods you can have over a week. So, we do the 20-food thing. Do that for the next month, or the next week, and see how you go. How much variety are you getting, in grains and plants and vegetables, and let’s have a look at what fiber’s going in. So, yeah.

Amie: It sounds like a good combination of food as medicine, really sustainable approach through the diet, but then some just very considered supplements, and in particular avoiding fermentable fibers initially. And I think it’s, as clinicians, it’s important to identify where someone’s at, and meet them, you know, what’s the next step, not trying to take them to end game…

Liza: Yeah, yeah.

Amie: …immediately. And I think part of the challenge with that is we do live in a culture where people have this desire for a magic bullet, and to sort of shortcut the healing process, and I think part of the challenge can sometimes be managing expectations, and really laying out that roadmap, and also really educating the patient on why you’re giving them what you’re giving them. But certainly, I think the six-step approach that you have shared with us today makes so much sense. It’s really considerate and respectful of the person’s body and where they are, and allows plenty of flexibility, in order to move someone towards being ready for a formal detoxification protocol in and of itself.

Liza: Yep. Yep. The other thing that people sometimes come in, and they say, “Look, I need to do a detox, because I’ve got all this stuff, and I know I’m not well.” And the other thing that we forget is that we’re detoxifying every day. So I said, “You’re doing that every day. You’re doing it all the time. So let’s have a look at just making that work a bit better.” And they go, “Oh. So, I don’t have to do this four-week, like, massive detoxes?” No, no, no. At times, we can, if there’s a problem, but we’re just gonna help you do it better, because you are doing a good job. It just might be a bit tired, and let’s just facilitate it. And people… See, people don’t understand. A lot of, I think, success with, definitely, with what I’ve done is I just meet people where they’re at, and I understand the biology and the physiology, and understand the big scope of chronic disease. Yeah.

Amie: Mm. Yes, yes. Your experience and expertise here is absolutely evident. And Liza, I can’t thank you enough for your time today. It was just absolutely brilliant, and I know we’re gonna put all of Liza’s contact details in the show notes, because if you are a clinician looking to grow and deepen your knowledge in this area around detoxification in complex cases, Liza does have business mentoring and online programs and courses. If you are not a practitioner, but maybe you are a person who’s been dealing with chronic illness, and you know there’s an element of toxicity in there, there’s actually a great free guide to clean living on Liza Twohill’s website as well. We will be certain to link that in the show notes, which is a really good place to start. It’s really, I guess, jumping to step two, cleaning up what you can in your life, by reducing your overall toxin load. So, Liza, thanks again for taking us through your approach to complex cases.

And to our listeners, thank you for joining us today. Remember, you can find all of the show notes and other related podcasts on the Australian Designs for Health website. I’m Amie Skilton, and this is “Wellness by Designs.”