Amie: Oh, an absolute pleasure to have you back. And if anyone’s ever heard an interview with you before, they’ll know you’re an absolute wealth of knowledge, and the reason for our chat today is Tracee has actually just recently delivered an incredible webinar on the subject specifically called “Confident and Integrative Co-Prescribing for MHT in Perimenopause and Menopause.” And purpose of our chat today is to touch on that a little bit, and also discuss some of the context and the mindset issues around this, because I can imagine there are practitioners who’ve seen the title of this interview and gone, “I’m not listening to that, because I’m not interested in synthetic hormone replacement therapy.” And if that’s you, you’re not listening to this anyway, but if you have a colleague who you know has just gone “skip” on this podcast, believe me, I understand why, because I graduated early 2000, where we had the living daylights scared out of us around synthetic estrogens causing estrogen-dependent cancers, like endometrial cancer and breast cancer, and so, even though I’ve got a laundry list of things I wanna talk to you about today, can we just start with, that, unfortunately, turned a whole generation of practitioners off ever looking at the opportunity for synthetic hormone replacement therapy, either for themselves or how best to support their clients, because, understandably, no one wants to develop those cancers. But since then, a lot more has come out, the narrative has shifted, we also have a greater understanding on how to support those pathways that might be affected, so, can you give us just a little reality check, to start with?

Tracee: I can, Amie, and what, I suppose it’s taking you down the same path that I have gone down. I was invited to deliver this webinar months and months ago, probably more than six months ago, and at the start, I was like, “Oh, yeah, I’ll be talking all about what’s wrong with using MHT, what’s the issues around side effects, how we can support them, and what women can do as an alternative.” That was the, I have to admit, it’s the mindset that I kind of was going into. I had been seeing a shift over the past few years, with a number of patients, and taking…everybody seemed to have something that had a different name, and I’d have to look it up, and there was always something different on offer. And I also graduated in the early 2000s. The Women’s Health Initiative was abandoned in 2002, because of increasing rates of various types of cancer, endometrial, breast cancer, and had a complete hands-off approach myself. It’s something that when…and I’ve successfully, and I’m sure so many other practitioners have as well, successfully helped so many people go through this transition, and support them in understanding that it is a transition, that menopause isn’t a disease, menopause is a transition, and to support women through that, by reducing their symptoms of what’s going on, usually by looking at lots of things in their life, where they need to perhaps stop doing XYZ, do less of this, do more of some good, nurturing things, and with some herbs and some nutrients, they get great outcomes.

But what’s changed over the last, what is now 20 to 25 years, is a number of things, and a big part of it is what is available for women, and I think that, I never forget the exact numbers, absolutely have to watch the webinar for me to be very precise, but in the vicinity of 50 different types of medicine is available. Different types of prescriptions can be made. And these days, what we have is body-identical or bio-identical forms of estradiol, and of progesterone, available to women to be prescribed by their GP. Don’t have to be at a specialist clinic to be getting this. It’s not something that needs to be compounded by the pharmacy. It is literally prescription medicine that is body-identical, and is indistinguishable from what our body would be producing. And the benefit for that, when we then, that’s down on that individual woman, we soon back out on where the studies are at, the safety of using these is nothing…there is actually cardio-protective benefits. There are potential cancer-protective benefits. Couple of cancers have lower incidence rates when we’re using, when we’re steering clear of the synthetic, particularly the conjugated equine estrogen, and steering clear of the synthetic progestogens, which are nothing like progesterone. So, that’s where we’re at today, and so we’re in a new world. It’s like we’ve all landed on a new world, and this new world has so many other opportunities, and the benefits to our patients are significant when they, particularly when they’re experiencing symptoms for which are impacting their life in ways that we can’t imagine, of, and to say that this is just a transition, you just have to go through it, potentially there’s alternatives for them.

Amie: I think that’s such an important update. I think it’s fair to say practitioners, you know, regardless of what type of medicine or health you practice, staying up-to-date with the latest research is just a mammoth job, even in your own niche. So I think this is a really important place to start the conversation, because, certainly, you know, that, I too saw the results from the Women’s Health Initiative, and it was just an absolute turn-off, and things have really changed. Now, before anyone thinks that Tracee and I are paid pharmaceutical plants, we’re now promoting menopausal hormone therapy, the point of this conversation… Definitely not. First of all, no, we’re not. Let’s just say that. And nor are we suggesting that you should consider this for yourself or for your patients, but if you have previously held the mindset, understandably, that this is a no-go zone, and the benefits are, you know, symptomatic at best, and the risks are just too extreme, that’s not the case anymore, for a few reasons, partly because of the development of medicines, what’s available, the way that they can be delivered, the different types of, you know, molecular structures, the delivery methods, the way they can be combined. But also, we have access to much better ways of monitoring, also, the response, and how somebody’s body is actually detoxifying, metabolizing these things. We have more tools on how to support them, and really, at this point, as it always was and always will be, we’re looking at truly holistic medicine. And if this is not a space that you’ve looked at since then or in a long time, now is a really great time to dive back in and actually see. And I think it’s really important, and this really applies across the whole board. I know, particularly as a young naturopath, it was like, “natural medicine or nothing at all,” and I’m sure most of us are probably natural medicine-first, but it’s not an either-or situation, and there is, you know, it’s an ever-moving target in a transition, like menopause also, which, you wanna be flexible and responsive about. But in this, case it’s time to revisit what’s available.

So, I think, let’s start with talking about unopposed estrogen versus estrogen that is being balanced out with progesterone, not the same as progestin, by the way, but also the types of estrogen, you know, how we’ve moved, or, I guess expanded beyond equine-derived estrogen, and also the difference between, you know, an oral tablet versus transdermal versus vaginal. It’s just a very different landscape now. Can you summarize briefly for us, like, that portion of it?

Tracee: Yeah, and that’s a really important part. I think it’s a big part in this shift. You know, the history goes back of conjugated equine estrogen literally, you know, taken from pregnant horses’ urine, and packaged up into a pill, and, you know, for a long, long time, we’re going back into the, you know, the ’50s, ’60s, ’70s, we knew that unopposed estrogen might have given some symptomatic relief for women, but that unopposed estrogen, as it does in the body, without a progesterone, does lead to thickening of the uterine lining and hyperplasia, so, the increasing risks of cancers. And so, quite early on, it was realized if we give some progestogen, some synthetic progesterone-like compounds, that they might do other things that aren’t that great for the body, but they certainly prevent the thickening of that lining, so they…and so that’s where the combination was born, always as a tablet.

What has happened in the last 20 or so years is that delivery methods, first of all, type, have changed. We have now estradiol, that is no longer the conjugated equine estrogen, and then we also have progesterone available, the micronized progesterone. I think that’s only within the last 10 years, probably even less, here in Australia. Been around longer, but available under a prescription. But a big shift, and this is across medicine, I think, it seems, a big shift in looking at alternate delivery methods. And one of the biggest things we see when it comes to reducing side effects from these medicines, the effects that we don’t want, and also reducing risks of other things happening, is using the transdermal method. So, you can actually get a gel that is…and you can get a gel that is, or a patch, that is something that is able to really use the targeted doses for benefit, without then having the hepatic first pass. The lack of hepatic first pass is the absolute key, that we then don’t, we don’t require breakdown, we don’t have circulating levels that start off really high, then go really low, and we don’t have that daily dip. We have steady state. We also have, when it comes to vaginal estrogens, we have really localized doses, and localized benefit. So, using, again, creams, gels, pessaries, and tablets, from what I understand, is, and that they, with applying locally to the vaginal area, the genitourinary symptoms of menopause are some of the most debilitating, and often the least spoken-about. And that this can be, that there are options to benefit these, that, when we look at the clinical trials, have really good outcomes, with zero changes to blood levels of estradiol. Like, there’s no systemic impact of that. For most women, of course, you can be sensitive to taking any hormones, but for the most part, there is zero systemic impact.

Amie: Yes, fascinating. And I think, again, this is where it comes down to personalized medicine. If it is local atrophy of tissue, then local delivery makes the most sense. Why would you be giving something that’s oral, and much higher dose, to affect the whole body when it’s just one area that needs a bit of extra support? I love that. And I also think something you touched on before, regarding bioidentical molecular structures, is something I want to explore a little more, because I didn’t know this, and there’s, it’s not often I get surprised, Tracee, but you taught me something, that the micronized progesterone, that is, bioidentical progesterone that’s prescribed, is actually sourced from plants.

Tracee: It is sourced from plants. Yes, I’m gonna get the name of this for you, because this is, I think this is super interesting, and it’s something I learned in this process. The name of it is, it’s… So, it can come from wild yam, fenugreek, or soy. And here in Australia, wild yam and soy seem to be the primary one. And what is extracted is a compound called diosgenin, and that is extracted. And then, via a chemical process, that I wasn’t able to find, it’s probably proprietary, because I went down a rabbit hole on this, that it was, that through, and it was a process of acetylation, oxidation, and hydrolysis, it was able to be converted into stable progesterone. But that’s where we’re at with the micronized, stabilized progesterone, and why it’s oral still, because progesterone, in other forms, is not yet available in Australia. And I don’t, I’m not…I have really done my research on what’s available here in Australia. It may be that there’s other things available, but for those that are progesterone-sensitive, to taking actual progesterone orally, that they also use it as a pessary, and that, the micronized progesterone can be used in that way. But when we’re using it, using the patches and the gels, that are both, the estradiol, they are always with the progestogens, so we need our, Prometrium is the trade name or whatever, of this progesterone, micronized progesterone, is always as an oral form.

Amie: And a capsule form. Yes, yes.

Tracee: In a capsule form. Yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm.

Amie: Yeah. And certainly, in more recent times, I feel like the last year, maybe a little more, it is now covered on the PBS.

Tracee: Yes.

Amie: So, that’s great news for women.

Tracee: I have another number for you that I think is fabulous, that I wanna share. It is, of the drugs with the highest change in prescription volume last year, across the 250 million scripts handed out, the highest change, because of that, I believe it’s because of that anyway, is the change in progesterone prescriptions. We tripled the amount that we’ve given out, but out of 250 million, 180,000. And so it is up from 60-odd thousand, though. So, it was number one on that list. And it goes to show that when availability, that it’s meeting demand, that there is a demand, that that can shift like that in just 12 months. It’s meeting women with their symptoms, where they’re at.

Amie: Yes, I think it’s really interesting to have been watching the unfolding and intersection of our generation, who didn’t necessarily grow up with social media, but adopted it perhaps in their mid to late twenties, and are very comfortable on that platform. Plus breaking down the taboo and stigma about speaking about women’s hormone problems in menopause, and talking about the kind of symptoms that we’re experiencing, and then, that becoming available, which is really, if you’re looking at it strictly from a pharmaceutical point of view, is the first line of intervention for perimenopause, because estrogen is up and down very erratically, but progesterone is just on a one-way decline. And I think, to have access to an affordable option like that, I mean, affordability’s always relative, of course, but in terms of this, I think, even though I’m a naturopath, nutritionist, and herbalist, who’s natural medicine-first, really warms my heart that women have now got much more easy access to things like that, as such a low-risk intervention.

You did also mention…so, this come, they source it predominantly here from soy phytoestrogens, and maybe wild yam, but there’s also fenugreek. Let’s have a conversation about soy and other plant-derived phytoestrogens, because, oh, that’s one that can have very polarizing, conflicting views. And understandably, what we know about research and study design is, you can have one study that says one thing and one study that says something else, and there are a lot of variables that can produce that outcome of course, but originally, phytoestrogens were considered protective, they were considered to stand in for our hormones when there was a reduction in production, for example, but then, with, possibly triggered by the WHI, and other concerns around excess estrogen, there were then questions raised about phytoestrogens possibly producing the same thing, where they were in excess or unnecessary, and there was, between that and the demonization of soy, perhaps more tangled up in the GMO, and potentially goitrogenic realm, they got thrown in the bin, as the bad guys. What does the current evidence say around this?

Tracee: Yeah, it’s super interesting, isn’t it? I think that you’re absolutely right there, that it’s a combination of factors, you know, avoiding non-GM foods, when one of the most GM crops in the U.S. is soy, is a big story. That was certainly a story, again, at the same era as WHI coming out, and the idea that we need that phytoestrogens or estrogens, and estrogen is the devil, and we need to be…and that being the prevailing attitude. But for a plant-based source of protein, and good fiber, and of the benefits that we know of legumes, that one of the highest-protein sources of plant-based food being soy, it is one of the biggest crops globally for food consumption across the world. So, there are studies on soy consumption and soy isoflavone consumption, in huge population group studies, in different parts of Asia and Japan, in India. There are some big studies, there’s some Korean studies that I’ve read, where it is a absolute way of life, and part of the dietary makeup of the population. And the demonization of what essentially is a food group on most people’s plates most days, is, it has proven, I think, when it comes to the studies, proven to be unfounded. The risks of it being, like, of the estrogenicity, there is a, there was a systematic review and meta-analysis that found that it had no effect on the four measures in postmenopausal women, that where we need to be aware of in terms of promoting growth where we don’t want growth. So, the prevailing advice, through the AMS here in Australia, is that for those in states who are currently being treated for hormone-driven cancer, or have that personal history of it, that to keep it in a food consumption level. It’s not that you can’t have some edamame when you’re out for Japanese with your friends, but it’s certainly that you wouldn’t be taking isoflavone supplements. But for the general population, when it comes to, like I said, potentially forming part of your diet, of using whole food soy products, I always recommend, there’s certain things that I’m more, and it probably harks back to the days of the early and mid-2000s around GM, that soy must always be organic, to be their GM-free, that, again, I feel like the two nutrients that have had a massive heyday on social media in the last few years is protein. They’re now followed by fiber, which is very exciting for the naturopaths. Yeah, it warms your heart. You’re like, everybody’s having these big-picture conversations about the macronutrients in their diet. That’s really exciting. What’s a fabulous solution to those two, all packaged up in one, and that’s your whole food soy products, whole food, and your fermented soy products.

Amie: Yes, I think, you know, we are really lucky to live in a country where it is much easier to access higher-quality options, and finding organic tempeh, or tofu, or edamame beans isn’t outside the realm of possibility, and I think, yes, the renaissance of beans and legumes and the fiber story is…

Tracee: Isn’t it good?

Amie: …is so overdue. Yeah, yeah. Absolutely, for all of us that were terrified into the Atkins Diet [inaudible 00:22:21] And you know what, I think, as clinicians, we are doing our best to stay up with the research, but I think it’s been so refreshing to actually see not just that the research has changed, but the landscape of the medications have changed, the way that they’re applied, our understanding of women’s bodies and the way that they metabolize hormones and clear hormones has been enhanced, I suppose. It’s a bit more nuanced. And we really have the opportunity now to cherry-pick from whatever works for us personally, as a middle-aged woman, myself, who’s currently in that chapter of life, but also for our patients. It’s not either/or. I know, you know, sometimes I have clients that are surprised by my openness to all options, and it’s really about working out what is best for them, and what’s best for them right now might change in three to six months, or in one to two years, or if there’s some acute issues that then you can work on some underlying things alongside that, and perhaps withdraw medications later. There’s all kinds of ways to approach this, but I know when you and I had a pre-chat, we discussed lifespan versus healthspan versus joyspan. And I wanna riff with you a little bit on this too, because I know, for me, as a new grad, I thought I had the secrets to the universe, as a naturopath. I think we probably all feel that way when we learn about how the body really works, and all these incredible tools at our fingertips to make things go as well as they possibly can. And I remember thinking, “Ah, I’m gonna do all the right things, and live to 120.” It was like some goal. I mean, and I don’t know, Bryan Johnson’s probably the most famous person on planet Earth right now who wants to live forever. Personally, I don’t think he’s really living, with the things that he’s doing to stay alive. But anyway, that’s another conversation.

But now that I am a middle-aged woman, and I am experiencing things that an aging body is going to experience, no matter how diligent you’ve been with your health, my focus has, in recent, actually probably since mold illness, I think, when my quality of life just absolutely went down the toilet for a few years, I shifted to healthspan, rather than lifespan. Like, what’s the point living to 90, 100, 120, 150, if that’s even possible, if you feel terrible, your quality of life is poor? But then, in my health recovery journey, lots of things unfolded there, but you can also forget to make room for just the joy of being alive, and giving yourself permission to feel good. And I have absolutely done this more than once. I’m sure I will do it plenty of times again in the future, but I’ve been guilty of muscling through things, because I haven’t wanted to lean on something synthetic. But I do think we’re having a renaissance in women’s health and wellbeing, which I’m so here for, by the way, in being heard, seen, taken care of, assessed properly, and supported properly. I’d love to hear your thoughts on what you’re, A, choosing for yourself, around those concepts, but also what you’re seeing women are asking for, how you’re supporting your clients. What’s the temperature check on that?

Tracee: Yeah, I’m so much a similar, like, a similar path [inaudible 00:26:04] Amie, in that I also had this, along with everything else you’ve said, I also then thought I had this idea as a young naturopath, it’s certainly changed now, of the health responsibility that we all carry, that we are all 100% responsible for our health. And the concept of lifestyle diseases, that they are the product of certain lifestyles, you change your lifestyle, you change your health. And, very quickly, that idealism was my experience with patients, but also personal experiences of having diagnoses where you’re like, “Well, that challenges that belief really significantly, and so I’m gonna have to rethink and reassess.” And I think, if we ever stop rethinking and reassessing, then that’s what I’ve done, if you start being flexible in your brain in the way that you think of things. But certainly, when it comes to getting through something, the naturopath who pushes through pain because…not [inaudible 00:27:11] naturopath, the person, not [inaudible 00:27:12] naturopath, the person who shuns the concepts of all the tools in the toolbox, opening up the toolbox and saying, “What’s in here for me, that can help me live my life,” you know, for length, help me be healthy in my life, because there’s living, there’s being healthy, and then there is the joy, I believe, there is the joy in our life, that, do we need…is it always no pain, no gain? Is it always the person who gets the most tough stickers for putting up with X, Y, Z that wins?

And I think that, in an extortionate number of women, for generations, either they were ignored, and we go in historical concepts around how women may have been treated when it particularly when it comes to hormonal health, ignored, or told they were hysterical, or they were crazy, etc., that then you gotta button it up and hold it in. And in more recent generations, it’s, we’re all equal, we can all do the same, and so we push through, despite the fact that we might be doing it on not enough sleep, every joint may be aching, our brain may be a foggy piece of dust, that “No, no. We can keep soldiering on and soldiering through.” That, why not, at that point, look to where is the joy in life? How much do I wanna go out for a run and not have every joint ache? Or how much, when I tuck up in bed, do I wanna get a night’s sleep? And to do that, when we open up our toolbox, and as naturopaths, we have the most, it’s like, I picture we open up our toolbox and it’s like the big ray of the rainbow comes out, you know? We’ve got so much. We can work on all that stuff that you see, those memes, or Reels on social media. You know, “I’ve gotta eat my protein, I’ve gotta get my morning sunlight, I’ve gotta get eight hours sleep, but I’ve also gotta get an hour’s exercise, including resistance exercise, three times a week,” and, you know, etc. We’ve gotta do all those things. But that’s the magic of us as practitioners. We open the toolbox, and we can select from that rainbow of what’s gonna be most beneficial for our patients. But in pulling those out, are we going to, to the detriment of our patient, ignore other things? Are we going to say to get that good night’s sleep, and you’re gonna do all these things, and you’re gonna tick off at least three pages long of sleep hygiene, and then you’re gonna get into sleep, when a distinct lack of progesterone, actual lack of this hormone, a deficiency, if you like, is the underlying driver? Are we root-causing our patients, or are we popping Band-Aids on top? That’s a question I don’t have the answer to, necessarily. But then to learn and go, “Huh. The difference in progestogens and the progestins and the progesterones, and understanding that, and the option that the patient can just go to a regular GP, and get a regular old script, at a, for many, an affordable price, and pull that out of the toolbox, and then get a good night’s sleep, as just an example, this as an example, that, then, of what their joy of their life is gonna be when they wake up that next day, as opposed to chronically, as an example, chronically under-sleeping, that’s…

Amie: Yeah, that’s a brilliant example, and I think one that’s really relatable, because you could do your 30,000-step health routine each day, but even if you were achieving the outcome you were looking for, can we really call that a life? And if an intervention as simple as bioidentical progesterone, to balance out the chaotic estrogen levels in that initial stage of perimenopause, for example, allows someone to get a deeper rest, so that they have more energy the next day, so that they can do their workout routine, and their body is not in pain, and their mood is more stable so that they’re more productive, and perhaps they can achieve the same level of quality of life, without having to work so hard just to keep their head above water… And, you know, sometimes these interventions are circuit breakers. Maybe they’re for a season or a short period of time. Maybe they might buy someone some time while you’re working on underlying things, and it isn’t intended for a more medium to long-term approach. But I think, yes, even though we have this really comprehensive, incredible toolkit, we are doing ourselves and our patients a disservice not to consider the toolkit of other modalities, and in this case, menopausal hormone replacement therapy, and where our patients could dip in and out of, you, know,, both of those toolkits. I mean, if we’re truly practicing holistic medicine, that’s what it means. What’s truly holistic medicine, taking advantage of every opportunity, with assessment, you know, diagnostic treatment, support, rehab, all of those things. And I think, I mean, your webinar covers so much, if I can just point that out for anyone listening. Tracee goes through pharmacokinetics and pharmacodynamics, and so this is not just about delivery route of medications, estrogen and progesterone, and androgens, by the way. I’ve also seen, particularly in U.S. midlife influencers, a lot of talk about testosterone, which I’m absolutely here for, but you also talk about, in the webinar, like, how to improve metabolic outcomes, you know, naturopathic interventions to reduce the side effects of the medication, naturopathic interventions to actually enhance therapeutic outcomes. And what that potentially means for patients is they can use a lesser dose…

Tracee: Yes.

Amie: …and get the result that they’re looking for, when used in combination with, you know, other things that can really support that. And for anyone who’s still feeling a bit nervous about this, totally understand that, but Tracee also goes through the caution list. So, the herb-drug interactions, the nutrient-drug interactions, the red flags to look out for, the cytochrome P450 and transporter considerations. Specific patient phenotypes that might require a modified route, I mean, it’s, I can’t even believe you fit all of this into one webinar, Tracee, but if anyone can do it, it’s you.

Tracee: It was intense.

Amie: I’m sure it was. And you also covered off when to refer and co-manage. So, if this is, you know, something you want to brush up on, or you’ve actually just been avoiding it entirely because of the abysmal options we had two decades ago, and some of the problematic outcomes that were occurring as a result, please take this as your sign to dive into this webinar, and actually have a look. I mean, Tracee goes through the 50 different medications and combinations for menopause. To say there is a smorgasbord of options here for women navigating this particular life chapter is really a total understatement. Look, Tracee, this has been an amazing talk. I could pick your brains for another hour, but I think we really just need to send people to your webinar. But, in closing, do you have anything else you feel really compelled to share, say, guide, direct, or things that someone might benefit from knowing on this subject?

Tracee: Oh, gosh. Now I’m on the spot. I think, though, something I was thinking of as you were just talking is the idea that, and we’ve covered it a lot, it’s not one or the other, is that when, because when our patient comes to see us, and they’re wanting support, that to, you know, to support them whilst they’re using MHT, or to, if they’re, particularly if they’re asking, “What’s your thoughts on it?” and so you refer them, to say, you know, look, if this is something you wanna do, and you go talk to your doctor about it, that it isn’t, in the same way as you might refer them to get a remedial massage, we might refer them to a women’s health physio, that that doesn’t then mean we don’t keep doing what we’re doing, that what, all the things that we’re doing, absolutely, these are the foundations, these are the things that underpin joy into older life, health into older life, and if we get some of these patterns and processes and habits in place for our patients now, we’re setting them up for this, the fact that, you know, it is only midlife, that there is another 40, 50, 60, 70, years of healthy life left, you know, that, you know, we, that…and we’re uniquely positioned. I always see that, when we have our patients, that there’s a, should be, you know, ideally, a team of people around them, that we’re a keystone of that team, and to be having conversations with our patients around this, which is usually, in my experience, it’s 100% patient-driven, not by me, but by the patient, to be empowered to support that, is to help remain our position as the keystone for our patients.

Amie: I think that’s a lovely note to wrap up our conversation on, and that is, even if a patient chooses to use MHT, in any way, shape, or form, for any period of time, it’s our job to really support them in setting up those underpinnings. Even if it’s for the rest of their life, and not necessarily for the hormonal transition they’re going through, it’s going to be beneficial anyway, and I fully agree, as our form of medicine is a keystone in someone’s health always, and I think it’s often at these times of transition that people, really, poor habits catch up with them, and even just reminding people of some of those basics can have a really, really powerful effect.

Tracee: Mm-hmm.

Amie: Oh, Tracee, you’re just a wealth of knowledge, as always. And for anyone who’d like to connect with Tracee, her Instagram handle is @safe_coprescribing. It is an incredible resource for you as a practitioner, and of course, Tracee offers mentoring and training in other areas too, but if you haven’t already had a look at her webinar, please do. It is certainly one for the ages, I think, in the reclamation of women’s health and hormones, at this time in history, so we appreciate you so much. Thank you so much for taking us through all of this.

Tracee: Oh, absolutely. Anytime, Amie. Thanks so much for having me.

Amie: Pleasure. And thank you, everyone, for joining us today. Remember, you can find all the show notes, links that we’ve mentioned, and other podcasts on the Australian Designs for Health website. I’m Amie Skilton, and this is “Wellness by Designs.”