Amie: Pros and cons, yes. Well, look, it’s such an honor to have you. As a registered dietitian and functional practitioner yourself, you know exactly what it’s like to be in practice, dealing with clients, and I’m looking forward to hearing how you got started, but I would hazard a guess that it was probably doing hourly consults, like we all start out doing. And since then, you have moved your own practice to a premium program model, and you also are really passionate about teaching health professionals to do the same. Can you share a little bit about, yeah, that journey from maybe student to dietitian, and then dietitian to, you know, from hourly consults to programs?

Rebekah: Absolutely. I think, like…yeah. I’m in a very fortunate position now, where I work with a whole bunch of different health professionals, in terms of the modality. So, everyone from nutritionists and dietitians like myself, and naturopaths, all the way to functional GPs, pharmacists, and exercise physiologists. But where it started was very much in that clinical dietitian bubble. So, I was very much trained to go down a certain pathway, and I did go there, into much more of the public healthcare hospital setting, and that’s how I actually started. But, like probably lots of people here, whether it’s in the hospital setting or just in a job working for someone else, I quickly knew that that sort of, what do we call it, nine to five, it’s never nine to five, is it?

Amie: No.

Rebekah: Nine to five really wasn’t where I was meant to be. It was much more running my own business, for a whole bunch of reasons. For, A, my own lifestyle. I love to travel, being a Kiwi over in Australia. You can probably tell. And also, in terms of how I wanted to see patients and clients was a very certain way of delivering a service as well. So, I started working for other private practice clinics as well, and that just purely allowed me to start my own private practice on the side, while still having that sort of financial stability underneath me. So, very quickly, I started seeing, like you said, the traditional way of working with patients and clients, gonna use that term interchangeably here, with that hourly rate model, traditional, initial consult and follow-ups, paid by the hour, I think I got three months in, and I realized, in order to reach my goal, my first stepping stone goal, to actually earn enough to reduce my hours in these other jobs, how many hourly-rate consults I would have to take, outside of hours, on the weekends, plus the admin, was just ridiculous. So, I thought there must be a better way to do this. I couldn’t find anyone in the healthcare setting to actually help me, so I actually went outside of the healthcare setting, into, I’ve spent probably over hundred thousands dollars now, and, in business coaching. And I came across very much the program delivery. So, this is when I was back in New Zealand, and I started, I put together my first program. I was very proud of it. It was called “Health, Not Diets,” and I sold it for $3,000 per person. And so, what that meant was I hit that financial goal to wean off my hours in these other clinics. I only had to see, you know, one to three clients a month to do that, instead of three every day after work, after a long day at another clinic. And I was able to wean off those other jobs in seven to nine months, I believe it was, to get the financial stability. But then also, from the patient group I was working with, it actually allowed me to do really in-depth, supportive work, that I really wanted to do, which I felt, whenever I did an hourly rate consult, I’d just be cramming a whole bunch in, hoping that they came back, not really getting to the crux of the issue, especially in the clinical niche I was working in. So, it really became a win-win, and I haven’t really looked back since practicing in this way. It’s just evolved into other clinical areas.

Amie: Yes, wow. I mean, I want to just acknowledge how smart you are to get into that so much quicker, because [crosstalk 00:05:27]

Rebekah: Impatient.

Amie: Well, I love that for you, and I love that for us, because I think many practitioners, it takes years before they realize this is unsustainable. It often takes a bout of burnout. Or it’s this unsustainable season of overwhelm, where they’re juggling multiple income streams, like, you know, side jobs, or whatever it might be. Or, you know, seeing, I remember hearing a practitioner say she sees 12 clients a day. I just wanted to have a heart attack at the thought of that. And, you know, and all the extra work that goes around that, in terms of analyzing labs, putting resources together, writing the program, sourcing, you know, the things that they want. And I think there’s so much to unpack here…

Rebekah: Yes.

Amie: …but I think where I wanna start is something you said to me when we had our earlier chat, is that most practitioners are actually providing programs already. They just don’t recognize that’s what they’re doing, and they haven’t packaged it and priced it accordingly to the value that they deliver. So, they’re essentially doing a lot of unpaid work, but having a program doesn’t necessarily mean totally changing your business model or anything like that. It’s really looking at what you’re already doing, and bringing it together under an umbrella. Can you talk us through that, and how does that conversation go when you talk to, like, business clients, and you’re like, you’re already giving a program, you’re just not getting paid for it.

Rebekah: Absolutely. First of all, what you said is absolutely right. The timing is different for every practitioner going through this. I’ve worked with some practitioners who are 10, 20 years into practicing before they change, and that might be because it’s been working for them so far, and now they’re going into a different era of their career and life, where they need…the business model just doesn’t match what they wanna do anymore. And then at the same time, we’re getting a new generation of practitioners coming through, after graduation, who have seen a lot of burnout in the industry, and a lot of people leave the industry, and wanna get set up with a, like, strong foundation at the start, to prevent having to go down that road in order to find a change. So, it’s really interesting, with this dynamic that’s going on.

When it comes to actually, back to your question, with this…this really shines light on what are we actually talking about when it comes to a program, I guess. So, the wording is really important, because these terms do get thrown around, and we all interpret things differently, depending on our lived experience. So, some people think of the term “program” as more like an online course, something that’s self-paced, something that the client goes through themselves, and you are setting up an online course, so you can have one or a thousand people in it. What I’m referring to is very much more of a hybrid style program. So, there may be some education self-paced components, but we also still have some consults in there, whether they’re short or long. We have maybe some functional testing. We have some prescribing. We have some other resources, and tools, and/or access, and support, even multiple practitioners coming together, to deliver an MDT service to one patient or client. So, when you say some people are already doing this, I think this is really important to acknowledge, that so many practitioners I speak to feel like they’re charging a really high amount. Maybe they’re getting into the even $200 to $300 per hour, and I know there’s a lot of people sitting well under that as well. But that is purely for the face-to-face, online or in-person, time that is sitting with that client. Around that, I’ve seen it as much as one, two, three, four hours of time, going into that patient around that one-on-one consult, that they’re not going getting paid for. Whether that’s admin, putting together a health plan or a protocol, ordering supplements, analyzing, interpreting tests, answering emails and answering questions, sending off education to that patient, which comes from a fantastic place, because we wanna get the patient the best result possible, or the client the best result possible, so we pour everything into it. But when you take that hourly rate that you’ve set, call it $200, and you divide it by the actual amount of time that you’re doing for that person, the hourly rate goes really low, really, really quickly, as you can imagine.

So, with what you were referring to, is sometimes, it feels scary going into a program model, compared to an hourly rate consult model. But if we actually look at some of the clinicians I work with who are maybe ordering a GI-MAP, and interpreting it, and doing a consult, for example, they’re probably already doing all of that work. They’re just not charging for it. And then we look at other industries outside of the healthcare market, and someone close to me is a lawyer. They are charging every seven minutes of their time, whether that client is in front of them or they’re just doing work on their case. Whereas health professionals just don’t think like that. So, it’s really interesting learning from other industries. And if…I talked about this with someone the other day. They were like, if it made the news that there was a factory, and there were people working in this factory floor, working eight hours a day, and it came out that they were only getting paid for two or three hours of that workday, it would be…it’s illegal. Right?

Amie: Yes, yes.

Rebekah: But, so, when we actually reflect on what we’re doing, sometimes a really easy switch is just going, “Oh, my gosh. What am I actually doing? How do I actually communicate this clearly, so that I can keep doing this deep work I want to? I just get paid for it. Rightfully so.”

Amie: Yes, yes. But, also, practitioners don’t wanna sit there and bill in seven-minute blocks, like solicitors do.

Rebekah: That’s just to make the point.

Amie: [crosstalk 00:11:58] Yeah. No, no, but I love that, in that, you know, these other professions are valuing their time, and are billing incrementally for everything they put in, and yet there’s all this unpaid labor, is essentially what you’re saying, around the hourly consult, and when you add it up, it really does whittle down someone’s income, and because there are only so many hours in the day, and that is different for everybody…

Rebekah: Yes.

Amie: …depending on what else they have going on, but not only does that really limit your ability to earn money, because you’re limited by, you know, the amount of clients you can see per day, and deliver on what you’ve promised for them, and then after that, there’s nowhere more to go.

Rebekah: Yeah.

Amie: And I think there’s a few things that make practitioners hesitate, or maybe not even consider even having a program.

Rebekah: Yeah.

Amie: And I wanna start with something that I feel like is a bit of a core wound in the healing profession, and it comes from a really beautiful, altruistic place, because I think almost everyone if not everyone who gets into naturopathy or healing is just not only fascinated by the subject, but also really deeply cares about people and wants to help them, and wants to share their information, to make their lives better. I think that goes without saying.

Rebekah: Yeah.

Amie: But there seems to be a bit of a distortion there, where people couple that feeling with earning good money from delivering something I would deliver for free if I could afford to…

Rebekah: Yeah.

Amie: …feels a bit off. And so, I think all of us probably go through some degree of that at some point, around giving ourselves permission, and it’s kind of, it’s a self-worth thing. It’s valuing what you do. Of course, you know, you need a bit of experience to understand that you’ve got your methodology right, and, you know, and you are delivering results, and can reliably do so, but there’s a point where you have to, and often, unfortunately, it does come from burnout, or some sort of life event or change of season that forces you to change, but if you’re ahead of the game, like Rebekah is, you look ahead and go, “Right, we’re gonna pivot a lot more quickly,” and really, what that means in terms of your income and your time freedom is huge, but I think the biggest thing is people giving themselves permission, that they’re allowed to be paid well for the brilliant services that they provide. How do you have that conversation with someone who’s maybe struggling to make that leap?

Rebekah: Yeah. It’s a really good question, and I think most of us, you and I included, got into this industry to help people, rather than make a whole bunch of money. In the long term, even yourself, Amie, I can probably assume that you know some practitioners who have ended up leaving the industry from burnout, or because they just needed a break, and that’s really, really sad to me. It’s actually why I started this, because I came across some incredible practitioners who were just, I was in awe of, when I was starting out, right? They are people that I would refer my own mother to for care. And I saw these incredible minds and experience leave the industry, not because they didn’t like what they were doing, but because they didn’t like how they were doing it. And they would look into the next 10 years and say, “Oh, my gosh. If it’s just gonna be this, again, for another decade, I just don’t think I can do it.” And so much of what we do in healthcare, it’s got its own emotional, I suppose, toll. Like, there’s a lot of exhaustion that comes from holding this space as well, that I don’t think we take into consideration. So, the first thing I would say is, if you burn out, and you have to, and/or just have to take a break from seeing clients, then no one gets helped. And health professionals are one of the key legs of the stool of healthcare, right? And if these brilliant minds leave, then no one wins. So, it’s actually not about you. It’s a disservice to the patients and clients, who deserve to have access to the best care in the world, which is only possible, in my opinion, when you’ve got experience, yes, but you’ve got a model that supports the practitioners to deliver that level of care.

Amie: Such a good point. I mean, financial health is health, for a start. You ask anyone, you know, what it does to your nervous system and your ability to access, you know, good food. The health interventions you require, it’s a major issue. But I think, you know, if you can’t do it for yourself, do it for the people you’re trying to serve, because you must be able to take care of yourself in that way in order to be able to deliver it. And I think, you know, once someone is able to get through that, you know, I guess it’s a falsehood, in a way, to be telling yourself that you don’t deserve to be paid well for the skills you worked so hard to attain and deliver, but further to that, a concern that I hear from practitioners, and I’ve absolutely said this in my own mind too, number of times, was, like, we pride ourselves on personalized, N=1 care. You know, we are always looking at the person in front of us, the root causes, working with what’s going to improve the functionality of their physiology, and I think, understandably, it’s very easy as a practitioner to go, “Oh, I can’t just make a program for…” Like, let’s call it SIBO. Or, let’s call it eczema. I can’t create a program for my niche, insert niche here, because it’s different for everybody. Do you know what I mean?

Rebekah: Yeah.

Amie: And that’s not actually true. But, before we start with where I’m going with that, I want you to just to dive a bit deeper into the structure of a program, and how and why it is you can still deliver one-on-one personalized care, alongside this, I guess, corollary suite of offerings.

Rebekah: Yeah. Oh, so much goodness to dive into, there, Amie. [inaudible 00:18:47] there, because, oh, where do we start? So, the personalization factor, I suppose, is, it is really, really important, to me. And that’s why, you know, even the term “premium” is a bit scary, but I kind of use it intentionally, just to showcase that we’re not creating a two hundred nine nine seven dollar online course, that is cookie-cutter, and one-size-fits-all here. What we’re doing is, and I think also answers your first question as well, of, when I work with practitioners, what makes them really confident to charge prices that seem outrageous and terrifying and unethical is that we don’t just pull numbers out of thin air, and we don’t just say, “Hey, I’m gonna create a 12-week program because everyone else is doing it,” or, “What should I price, because everyone else is pricing?” What we do is use something I like to call clinical intentional design. So, what this is is actually thinking, what would, actually…forget money for a second. What would actually get our patients and clients the best results possible, in the shortest amount of time, with the least effort, using our expertise? And I actually like to map that out first. And typically, this is why we end up having something like a 3, 4, 6, 12-month program, sometimes. Each clinician is different, because their lifestyle and their clinical areas are different as well. So, these are just examples. Because, for example, we built a fertility program, recently. And within that, we have pathology being tested, and we have nutrigenomics. And so, the first four weeks, we’re giving them more of a what I call, like, a population-based protocol, something that someone can get started with in the meantime. We’re getting the testing done, but by the time a lot of this sort of stuff comes back, it might be in the three to four week, at least, sort of mark. So, that’s one month. And then we get them on a really personalized plan, once we’ve got maybe some of their testing back, and we’ve done a full assessment, whatever kind of modality you are.

And then, for maybe, like, a woman’s hormone, something like a fertility program, we need, really, the minimum amount of time we want someone on, like, a active treatment plan is probably around three months. For evidence-based research reasons, we want to go through three hormonal cycles, for example, to really get to, see a difference. We don’t wanna retest iron any less than sort of 8 to 12 weeks, as an example. So, our rationale for this program is based off evidence. And then, we might do some retesting. So it’s, we are personalizing it, within this framework, and then we wanna see if and to what degree we need to continue working together after that point. So, I give that example just to show that what a program is, is, yes, we’re gonna see what parts do you feel, like, currently in your care, you feel like you’re regurgitating the same information, again and again, to patients and clients, that maybe digital you could deliver, virtually, to them? What parts of your admin are slow, where we’re attaching PDFs, and going backwards and forwards, that could be automated by digital systems, AI, software? From there, we’re creating a template of not the care delivered in the consults, but maybe, typically, how many consults, what testing, touch points, that most people who fall into this group would benefit from. And then, on top of that, because we’ve got these, the system set, we can lay a personalization to each person, on top of that. Does that answer your question? [crosstalk 00:23:02]

Amie: I love that distinction. [inaudible 00:23:02] No, no. That’s brilliant. And then, and I’m thinking out loud here, but, you know, just, I’m speaking more generally. I think I’d be fair to say most practitioners would talk about having breakfast before you have coffee, and why you need this much protein, and how much you need each day, and here’s a chart to, like, calculate your protein, and here’s a recipe collection, and there’s a lot of things you would say to people over and over again, getting rid of blue light before bed, getting sunlight in the morning, like, the fundamentals.

Rebekah: Yes.

Amie: And I realized, I perhaps realized this more when I was working with mold clients, because their brains are significantly impacted. I created a course around that, because they can’t remember anything I said anyway. And it’s actually kinder to give them digital me, a video of me in this case, you know, talking them through something, something that they can go back and re-watch, or watch when their brain feels clearer, they don’t have to remember anything.

Rebekah: Yes.

Amie: And then, you actually also can do, potentially, shorter consults, because you’re just focused on the personalized prescriptions, and then you can, you know, alongside that, send them modules, videos, whatever goes along with that, to support that. So, in a way, I actually think it’s better care than just one-on-one, because not only can you deliver things quicker, not only can you have this digital version of you, that supports the education and understanding of what you’re doing and why, they can revisit that…

Rebekah: Yes.

Amie: …and then you just get to do the thing that only you can do, and that is make those clinical decisions, and support them directly, and check in and actually make the decision about what’s gonna happen next. So, as you said, the rinse and repeat stuff, the admin, the resources. The other thing that came to mind as you were talking there was, I’m just thinking out loud again, but, like, say for a SIBO program, or whatever it is, you’re always gonna look at diet. You’re always gonna look at their movement. You’re always gonna look at their sleep habits. You’re always gonna look at nervous system, you know, support. There are core pieces you’re gonna use, no matter what condition you’re treating or what niche you work in, because they are the fundamental foundations of naturopathic care, regardless of what walks in the door.

Rebekah: Yeah.

Amie: And, yes, there might be some nuance around what you guide people, you know, fasting in a cycling woman is different to a postmenopausal woman, for instance.

Rebekah: Yes.

Amie: But, you know, those pieces can be pre-made, to the level at which the foundations are the foundations, and the education is the education. And then you can just tweak that and personalize it on top. So, you’re getting back time, you’re dramatically increasing your hourly rate, but you’re also providing a premium service to your client, where they have these…it’s not… I can’t tell you, in the beginning, like, I would have clients, I’m sure every practitioners has had this. You know, you sort of download everything you want them to know, and the patient walks away, like, feeling really overwhelmed, and they might do, like, one or two things, and then they come back, and they’ll be like, “Oh, I forgot you said that,” or, “I just couldn’t remember what you said,” or…

Rebekah: Yeah.

Amie: “…I didn’t really understand that, so can I ask you again?” and you just, this actually allows people to get more momentum…

Rebekah: Absolutely.

Amie: …with the least amount of friction [crosstalk 00:26:19]

Rebekah: Yeah. And, you’re so right. I couldn’t agree more, Amie. I think that’s a beautiful example. It’s cut… And this is the key takeaway. It has to be a win-win philosophy. So, so many times, we’re thinking just about the practitioner, and how do I make more money, and all this sort of stuff. And how do I leverage my time and not burn out? And then other times, we’re thinking just about the patient. But there is a world where we can have a model that is gonna be beneficial to both parties, and that’s what I endeavor to create. And this is why it’s gonna be different for each practitioner. For the mum who only wants the program to run within school term, and not school holidays, the service delivery’s gonna look different to someone who just needs a short program. We’ve got some clients doing 12-month programs for specific clinical niches. So, it’s different for each. And the education is just one component, which we’ll get to, and talk about that, with some other factors coming in in 2026, with AI and things like that. But there’s so much more you can do if you start to think outside of the box. And again, just for a second, remove financials from it, and think about what would be the best gold standard care I could possibly provide, and then we can workshop what it looks like. Some clinicians I work with have a group element, where it’s appropriate, within that, on top of one-on-one. Some of them don’t, because they might be working with diagnosed eating disorders, where it’s completely inappropriate, and that client doesn’t want anyone to know they’ve got an eating disorder, never mind go into a group workshop, whereas it’s beneficial for others. Even the support, in between. One of the reasons I added support in between for my programs was because I had a client, I’ve got a renal background, and they had to lose a significant amount of weight in order to qualify for surgery, in order to get a kidney transplant. And I was working with her, we were making great inroads, but because of the poor model, I threw a whole bunch of information at her, and I know she was super motivated, but she came back and said, “Oh, my sister,” or my friend, whoever it was, “told me that rapid weight loss can be really, really powerful if you could do, like, a juice cleanse.” And for anyone who knows, you know, potassium is a major issue for kidney function in CKD patients. And so, that actually put her into a stage where we had to get her acutely admitted to hospital, because of that issue. Whereas, if she had just had access, and didn’t have to wait four weeks for the next consult, because I was booked out, to ask me that one simple question, we could have not only made more progress, but actually prevented harm as well.

Amie: Yes. Yes.

Rebekah: So, like you said, it’s kind of, it’s more beneficial. And then the world’s your oyster. Maybe we could have other types of clinicians in here. Maybe…like, what can we do? Let’s start thinking outside the box. And then we can figure out, okay, how does this fit in your life? How can we make this affordable? And that’s why it’s such a good and exciting time to be in private practice right now, because we do have access to digital systems, software, AI, that make it such a cool time to practice, and speed up that process as well, to bring down costs.

Amie: Yes. It’s, honestly, so exciting. I feel like we’re very blessed to be, you know, doing this work at a time where we have so many tools that weren’t available, you know, not that long ago.

Rebekah: Yeah.

Amie: Just for anyone listening to this who’s starting to perhaps feel a little motivated to revisit their business model, we’re gonna talk a little bit more about, you know, some of the practical elements and inclusions and things in a moment, but I haven’t yet mentioned that Rebekah is actually running a digital webinar for us, a business mastermind webinar, called “The Premium Private Practice Method.” It is going live on the Friday the 28th of August. So, if you’re listening to this episode prior to that date, I could not encourage you more strongly to register for that, for a couple of reasons. Obviously, when you’ve got Rebekah live, you can actually ask questions and learn. There’s also, and we’ll talk a little bit more about AI in a minute, but Rebekah has designed a couple of custom AI tools, couple of bots to help you with pricing and choosing your niche, and this is truly a workshop. It’s not really a webinar. It’s a workshop, where you actually come and do the work and get it done, and get going, so… And of course, if you’re listening to this after the 28th of August, you can absolutely register, and still get the replay and all of those tools, but I think, for anyone who’s now getting curious about what this might look like, I wanna hear a couple of examples of, you know, I know you mentioned to me you’ve got a client who’s got a $1900 program and a practitioner who’s got a $12,000 program, and then you’ve got programs that have group elements, and not. And also, often bundled up and that is, you know, between-session support, maybe the supplements are included, maybe the testing’s included. How do we do that? And I think, before you dive into the practicality, actually, you mentioned the word “ethical” earlier. And I know practitioners are sort of probably starting to see now, “Yes, okay, I could do this and still provide that one-to-one personalized care.” But how can this be delivered in an ethical way? What are the guardrails? You know, what are the, I guess, ways in which that this could be potentially unethical? Can you talk to that a little bit?

Rebekah: Yes, and thank you for pausing me, because we could turn this into a three-hour implementation session, but that’s exactly what we’re gonna be doing, is actually building something together on that webinar. So, yes. Ethically speaking, I think, before I dive into ethics ethics, one thing you mentioned is, you know, a hesitation that most practitioners might have before doing this, when it comes to, like, yes, ethics but just running their business, is, it is scary, adding something on, that, you know, might be, say, let’s call it $3,000, for now. And pricing will change in the future, with software and things like that, too. But one thing I know a lot of practitioners get stuck on is, I’ve got so many areas that I wanna work in, and that interest me, whether they love the variety, or that’s just how the business has fallen, and one thing I wanna say is that, A, this doesn’t have to be your entire business model. So, this might just be something that you add on. You might continue doing one-on-one hourly-rate consults. You might have an online course. But this might just be another tier and another way of working, that might be a good fit, for some people that you work with. Because some of the benefit is now that you don’t need hundreds of people every month to hit your, we’re talking about a business here, financial goals. It can be really, really beneficial. So, I know, just mentioning ethics, something that comes up for a lot of practitioners is what about the people who can’t afford it? I find I feel unethical offering this, when I know, I work in a rural area, or I have access to low socio-economic groups, or I just feel bad, or, you know, they’re coming from a, I come from a public health system. We don’t even have to talk about money, never mind ask for thousands of dollars. So, I just wanna say that it doesn’t have to be for everyone, and like you mentioned, Amie, you can have different forms of this program, that can be accessible to other people, and I think that’s really one tool that you can have in your tool belt, which is, we have this way. It’s gonna come with this cost, because naturally, a lot of the stuff that’s included, say we do include functional testing, and just your time, we don’t have control over that, all of that pricing either, so it has to get to a certain point in order for this to be a profitable business.

But on top of that, we, I think the most ethical thing, to me, without getting into, like, legals, which we set up as well, and we’ll talk about that in the workshop, and making sure that you’ve got a strong foundation, that you’ve got all your t’s crossed and your i’s dotted, is actually transparency. So, the key here is we’re not forcing everyone into this way of working. Communicating how this works from the get-go to people, for people who it’s a right fit for, ethically and clinically and financially, is key. And then we’re inviting them to participate if it’s a good fit, and then it’s up to them. So, one thing that really resonated with me doing this was, when I go to the GP, for example, I want…and I’m starting a new medication, say. And maybe there’s three options. He’ll say… And say that that GP, he or she, said, “Cool. Which one would you like?” I want their opinions. I don’t want them to give me this variety. I want them to tell me which one may or may not be the best fit, based off of my situation. And when I started thinking about offering these, in terms of my clinical recommendation, rather than just forcing everyone into this, and having a conversation with someone, being transparent about why I work this way in the first place, and then saying, “Hey, this is the way I would recommend working with you,” clinically, because of what I know about you, maybe you’ve had one consult with them, maybe you’re having a application call or something like that, that’s what makes me feel really good in terms of just putting it all out there.

Amie: That’s a really good point, just being super clear on who it’s for, what’s included. And just circling back to your point around affordability, there are people who would like more access to you, and a high, like, a more premium, high-touch, frequent, you know, and are willing and able to pay for that. And in some ways, and then I’m just thinking this is, like, a more altruistic view, but if you are offering a premium program for someone who really desires that, and that’s gonna get them a best outcome, that actually, like, sets you up financially to be able to offer lower-cost, sliding-scale, individual consults, and not burn out doing that to everyone.

Rebekah: Yes. I love this, Amie. I’m laughing because I had a rant about this on social media the other day.

Amie: Did you?

Rebekah: I did. I got a bit of, like…

Amie: Little bit heated?

Rebekah: It was passionate, I should say. But, like, people really resonated with it, which is why I’m so glad you’re, like, bringing it up, is, number one, we focus so much on the low socioeconomic group, which is valid, and needed, and honorable. But, like you said, there are other groups that exist as well, who would rather pay a premium amount, and shorten the timeframe, get access to you, whatever it might be, and pay that much, and we’re seeing that in other healthcare services, especially in Australia right now, with particular, like, clinics that are offering stuff for $10 to $20 grand, and people are paying for it. So, the key thing I say here to practitioners is, it doesn’t have to be your only service delivery offer, but the offer you don’t make is the offer they can’t take. And say you had a $5,000 program right now. If you just had one to two people sign up to that, who were ethically, clinically, and financially a good fit for that, what difference would that make to you and them? And then, how much more sustainable and profitable would your business be, to where, great, my oxygen mask is now on as well. Maybe I now wanna offer to some scholarships, to some families who can’t afford it. Maybe I wanna do some pro bono work now, which I couldn’t possibly do when I’m just trying to pay my bills, and see my 12 clients a day.

Amie: Yes. A day.

Rebekah: Yeah. I was gonna say a week. I’m like, no, no. [inaudible 00:39:14]

Amie: Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. So, yeah. I mean, this is just so fascinating, and I think if practitioners… Well, I shouldn’t say practitioners aren’t yet offering a program, but it comes back to the fact that literally, practitioners are doing all this work anyway. They just haven’t crafted in a way that is easy to deliver, that is, you know, evergreens the parts that can be made evergreen, and freeing up their time. So, you’re essentially likely delivering some variation of a program without realizing it, and just not being paid for it. And I know you’re, in the workshop you’re gonna go through, you know, whether you include testing or not, whether you include supplements or not, what other elements might be included. So we won’t touch on that now, because I know it’s another big subject, but perhaps, before we run out of time, I’d love you to give me an example of, say, something that you’ve either done that’s, like, the lower price end of the range, or more new grad, versus that top-tier $12k program, for maybe a more established praccie. Just, what does that look like in reality, in terms of what’s included?

Rebekah: Yeah. And it’s also not just about how experienced they are. It could just be the client group, and how much of their one-on-one time is in it, as well. So, we’ve had some experienced practitioners do lower-tier stuff as well. And so, like I said, it’s not cookie-cutter. It’s very much, like, what is gonna be the best fit for you, and your patients? But to get a little bit, yeah, tangible about this, first of all, what I wanna say is, if you’re really, really new clinically, I am not against hourly-rate consults, which may come as a shock, if you’ve been listening to this podcast so far. But if you are new, and there is, maybe you’re not clinically confident in an area, or maybe you’re really experienced but you’re stepping into a new area, or maybe you just don’t wanna see many clients, and that works for you, hourly-rate consults may be the perfect fit. But it’s more, once you’ve sort of found an area that you like, what I would do with it, with any program, whether it’s $2,000 or $12,000, is pick a niche. And how I speak about niche is, you don’t have to niche your entire business, but each program you create, I would niche down. And the reason I would do that is because, A, from a marketing point of view, that’s how people search for stuff, so they will find you. And B, when you pick a niche, take the $1,009 program I was referencing, is a post-partum pelvic floor physios program, that specializes in… I’m not a physio, so I’m so sorry. You know who you are if I butcher any of this. But it’s the prolapse, the scarring, the, what’s the word I’m looking for? Basically, when you jump, now you have to pee, trying to fix that sort of stuff. So, where was I going with that? I got distracted by the [inaudible 00:42:35] That’s very niched, is what I was saying.

Amie: It is. Yes.

Rebekah: And the reason it’s niched is because that’s what allows us to actually streamline your service. Because each person coming in is probably gonna need a similar type of assessment forms. They’re probably gonna need certain types of testing. Certain, like, the duration is gonna be similar, as a starting point, minimum amount of time that you wanna work with them. And same with the $12,000 program, which is more in the, this is a clinical nutritionist and psychologist combination, working very much in the 45-plus women’s hormone and weight loss group. It’s gonna be similar there too, but they’re more doing, like, a one-stop shop. So, that’s the first path I would take, even if you’ve got multiple areas. You could have an endometrios program, a PCOS program, you know, all these sorts of things in there. And then, in terms of what they look like, it’s what we were referring to before. This is gonna be very logical and very boring, but it’s that clinical intentional design. So, what we’ve discovered by working with this incredible pelvic floor physio, we worked backwards of the minimum amount of time someone would need to work with her to get a result if they had this issue, at what points the consult should be, and how long they should be, based off what would get them the best results, the testing that would be included, and it ended up being, I believe, around the, you know, four to five-month mark. The $12,000 one is more of a six or twelve-month program option, and it’s that ongoing access. It’s moving more into almost, like, the health coaching, plus a very functional testing clinical zone, as well. Without getting too tangible, we do like to include as much as we can, because, from the client experience, it’s gonna be better if there’s not a hidden cost here, a hidden cost there, a hidden cost there. Even myself, as a patient, I remember I went to a different physio, and it would be great. The sessions, therapy sessions, would be great. It was for my knee, but I remember thinking, at the end of each consult I would say, “Cool. Like, do we have to come back?” and he’s like, “Oh, yeah. We’ll just book you in for another week or two. Or do you want to?” And I, it just, it really bothered me, because I didn’t know how to plan for it. And I was like, “Is this gonna go on forever? Is this, like, years of fortnightly consults?” And then I left, because I just didn’t know where it was going, and there wasn’t a plan. But what we actually do is say, “Hey, the minimum amount of care that I would recommend, based off my clinical experience and my research, is this amount of time, and then we can judge it from there,” but in terms of your term, kindness to the patient, it allows them to financially plan, and actually get on board as well, which I really liked. So, I hope that kind of answers your question…

Amie: Yes.

Rebekah: …without being too…

Amie: Yes. No, it absolutely does. And I really like your point about having a roadmap, a clear roadmap, you know.

Rebekah: Yes.

Amie: Like, as practitioners, we know it takes at least four weeks to raise secretory IGA when you’re working on gut health. If you are clearing parasites, you’ve got at least a five-week window if you’re taking a mini break in the middle, to let the eggs hatch.

Rebekah: Yes.

Amie: You know, then you’ve got the two weeks of, you know, reinoculation, so that’s a seven-week program. We know SIBO takes months, and there’s often moving parts there, and retesting along the way, and I think this is why, if you are a new grad, hourly consults is fine to get started and get that experience, and actually learn the timelines. But yes, it’s an awful feeling, I think, for patients, you know, each week, well probably not having weekly consults, but each month, paying you a consult, and then you’re like, “When do we get to the good part?” Like, when am I fixed? And if you have, like, a rough…

Rebekah: Yeah. What can I expect to come up…?

Amie: Yeah. What can I expect? And if you know, roughly, acne takes around three months to clear, or preconception work is a minimum of four months, or, you know, whatever it is, then you can start to map out the milestones along the way. But further to that, the price shock. So, if someone is budget-conscious, and they have looked at your consult rates, and then you’re like, “Oh, now we’ve gotta get out-of-pocket testing,” bang. “Oh, here’s how much your supplements is.” Oh. And then they’re like, “Oh, well, I might have to delay my next appointment, because…” you know, if you can create a package with everything in it, and then you’ve got a payment plan, they can budget for that, and there’s no, nothing more to spend outside of that, and again, you know, a practitioner might go, “Oh, but it’s all very personal,” yes it is, but if you’re dealing with gut health, you’re always gonna be running something like a GI-MAP. You know, if you’re dealing with hormones, you’re always running a hormone panel, maybe a DUTCH test, whatever it is. There are key components, and if you look on average what someone’s supplements might cost a week, $50, $75 whatever it is, depending on your style, you can get a rough estimate, that will capture everybody, and buffer, you know, the outliers at the same time, and that way, you know, everyone can just reliably go, it’s gonna cost me this much a week for this six-month program, and I don’t have to think where am I gonna get the money for the supplements and the testing. It’s just done.

Rebekah: Correct.

Amie: It’s all in-house. So, there’s just so many advantages to having a program. I, as you said, it’s a win-win, it’s better for the practitioner, it’s better for the patient, it’s better for the bottom line. There is an ethical way to do it, and that’s always done with intention, and really consciously choosing that, and being very transparent about things. Obviously you’re not gonna push it on anybody, but for the right person, it’s going to change your life, and theirs. So, yeah. I’m just so grateful you got onto that early in your career, Rebekah, and you’ve paved the way for us all. So great. And, as we said at the very beginning, this is how you practice with your clients as well, because, you know, you came up with this method because it works, it’s better for everybody, and now you want other people to understand it.

Rebekah: I think that’s a really important note. Like, I practice what I preach. And as a…I brought my registration over from New Zealand to Australia, I continue to practice, just with a couple of patients per month. And I, every time I sign a patient, client, onto one of my clinical programs, and then I’m doing the deep work that I do, and sort of, like, looking at their pathology, look at their nutrigenomics, I’m so grateful, for their sake, that I’m able to do this level of depth work, deep work for them. And I’m re-reminded every time why it’s so beneficial. You don’t have to do it, it’s not gonna be for everyone, but if you fall into that bucket, it’s… I love it. And I would, you’d probably be surprised how many people actually pay in full, as well. But, depending on, and we’ll talk about this in the workshop, two things. One, how to tailor it to your professional association, too, because we’ve got different requirements, depending on who you’re registered under, of how you have to lay these out, and, you know, what if people are on private funding, vs. Medicare, vs. all that sort of stuff. And also, the biggest question that practitioners ask, when I say something like a four-month program, is, “What if my clients don’t get results in this timeframe?” So, we’ll address all of that in the workshop.

Amie: What a cliffhanger to finish on. What happens if they don’t get results? Tune in and find out. Oh, Rebekah, thank you so much for your time. I am really looking forward to your workshop. And, yeah, practitioners, whether you are a new graduate, you’re a seasoned professional who’s been around for decades, or anywhere in between, if you’re not yet looking at creating, or you’re already delivering a premium program, it’s worth just coming along to this workshop, just to see. Try it on for size mentally, see if it would work for you, because it really does, I think, for the most part, is a game-changer for both practitioner and patient, and provides a way of delivering your services that’s actually an enhanced way of doing it, but is more sustainable and profitable for the practitioner. So, Rebekah, thank you so much for taking us through all of that.

Rebekah: Thank you so much for having me.

Amie: Ah, such a pleasure and an honor. And to our audience, thank you so much for joining us today. You can find all the show notes, the link to register for Rebekah’s workshop, and other podcasts, on the Australian Designs for Health website. I’m Amie Skilton, and this is “Wellness by Designs.”